Stereo power amp recommendation for Harbeth 30.2s

[bsf]

I own Harbeth 30.2s run by a vintage YBA Passion 400 amp (100 wpc/8ohms) through a Prima Luna Evo 300 preamp. The Harbeths are clearly the most musical speaker of any I've owned over my many decades. I find they pair very well with the Prima Luna preamp and I very much like the transparency of the YBA, BUT I wonder whether I need more power to fully appreciate the Harbeths. I previously owned a Hegel H190 integrated, which I replaced after an A/B comparison between a PL integrated and the Hegel H590. I went the preamp route to give me options and purchased the YBA (used) at the same time. I was never certain the the Hegel H190 had enough juice, and I'm uncertain today whether the YBA provides enough juice given the ineffeciency of the Harbeths in my listening room (12 x 18 with high ceiling). On some music, I wonder whether the amp provides sufficient dynamics and find myself inching the volume dial up to 12. I've considered the Van Alstine SET 400 amp, the Rogue Audio Dragon amp, PS Audio M700 monoblocks, the Bel Canto rfm600s, among others. I've also considered the Benchmark ABH2, but it's only 100 wpc and the cost of two Benchmarks is prohibitive. I also thought about the PS Audio 250 amp, but understand it runs very hot and want to avoid that. The problem is it is impossible to "listen," so I value the opinions of others who have opinions. I've even considered going to a Prima Luna tube amp, but the wpc output would be lower than my YBA. As I love the sound of the YBA, I will only make a move for a similarly transparent amp that will drive the Harbeths. So .... help anyone?

 

[warnerwh]

So I hope you realize to get a 3db increase in volume you need to double the power. In other words you have a 100wpc amp and if you buy a 200wpc amp the volume increase is 3db. One db is about as little of a volume increase as is perceptible so multiply that times three. To me it sounds like you are happy with what you have. Don't waste time and money like some of us have, at least me, chasing perfect sound. I suggest you start reading the amplifier reviews here. The reviews here are truly outstanding and thorough. I also suggest you read:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...iles-posting-at-asr-for-the-first-time.17598/

 

[RayDunzl]

Harbeth 30.2 --Sensitivity: 85dB/W/m nominal 6 ohms

The Integré Passion is rated to deliver 100Wpc into 8 ohms and 170W into 4 ohms.

Rule of thumb:
1W 85dB
10W 95dB
150W 105dB
1500W 115dB

Add three to six dB for two speakers speaking simultaneously with uncorrelated and correlated signal.

More or less.

A few watts (with peaks of a few tens of watts) can be pretty loud.

I wonder whether I need more power to fully appreciate the Harbeths.

Opinion (I have more watts than I ever "use"):

Unless you are listening so loudly as to exceed the capability of the amplifier to produce the voltage for the desired sound level, and flow the current to sustain that voltage across the load without perceptible distortions. there isn't much advantage to having additional unused power available.

YMMV.

---

Measurements would help determine if you are exceeding your capabilities, and to examine the quality of what you have now.

Anything else is guessing, arm waving, and posturing.

(please excuse my guesses and arm waving and posturing)

 

[dougi]

I developed a simple calculator to estimate power required. For most situations 100W is fine. Example below and this is for one speaker so ignoring the 6dB extra for two. This also inlcudes a noise calculator and an estimate of what distortion you might need ignoring masking (fanciful of course)

 

[direstraitsfan98]

Short answer: 200W is more then adequate in even the most rigorous of listening conditions with these speakers. There comes a point when you are simply asking too much from a stand mount speaker. You can’t expect the Harbeth 30.2 to fill even a medium sized room with sufficient sound. Especially if you’re sitting further then 9 feet away. I don’t even listen very loudly but I do enjoy the most dynamic of music, classical, and I think the Harbeth 30.2 fall short in being able to keep up with this kind of music.

As I have stated in the past regarding these speakers, and as a past owner of them, the Harbeth 30.2 and smaller ilk from Harbeth are simply incapable of handling dynamic music and playing loudly for sustained periods of time. You run into the mechanical limits of the bass driver long before you could overload it with power. Of course it depends on the type of music you listen to, but I don’t think it’s too much to ask for a speaker to be able to handle rock and roll and some daft punk. When sitting over 8 feet away, in my small room, I could hear the soundstage start to sound unfocused when I turned up the volume. I described it as sounding as if the speaker falling apart at louder volumes.

A question. Have you yet encountered the issue of the front logo rattling against the baffle? It makes a huge racket when you listen to bass notes in the 40hz range. If you don’t experience that during normal use then I seriously doubt you are going to encounter any of the issues I’ve been describing here. This speaker wasn’t made to play loudly. I recall a post by Alan Shaw on the Harbeth user group where he essentially calls it irresponsible to use the 30.2 to listen to music loudly.

 

[JustJones]

My 2 cents is add subwoofers to take over the lower frequencies and get more SPL.

 

[Matias]

 

[direstraitsfan98]

I highly recommend the Pass Labs XA30.8 to be partnered with the Harbeth 30.2. It sounds lovely together.

 

[RayDunzl]

I developed a simple calculator to estimate power required. For most situations 100W is fine.

Something similar here.

100 W is usually the "knee" on the power curve.

Less, not enough, more, headbanger territory.

Disclaimer: 700 4 Ohm watts in my rack, which, as far as I know, never all put to use, as that output level and the inefficiency of the amps, would pop the breaker out in the garage.

 

[Bear123]

If you are trying to increase sound quality, a couple of questions. Are you using room eq? Subs? If not, those two things would provide order of magnitude improvements to sound quality.

Also, the amount of power applied gives a limited return on investment. Most bookshelf speakers will be literally crapping the bed with high distortion by the time you dump 100 watts into them. Adding another 100.......

 

[bsf]

I appreciate the input. The problem I am grappling with, and with which I have never been able to receive a thorough explanation, is not whether more watts merely plays louder, but does it make the system sound better. Pushing the gas pedal on a Ford vs a BMW gives you a completely different experience. Even cruising at 60, one gives you a ready reserve that the other doesn't. I fully understand the doubling the power gives you a three DB gain, but what I don't understood is how one person can talk about how lovely a Pass Labs XA30.8 sounds with Harbeth 30.2s compared with Alan Shaw bragging about how his 40.2s can handle 500 or more watts and sound spectacular. I do not wish to listen to Metallica had ear crushing levels (indeed I don't listen to headbanger music), but I do wish to enhance the listening experience in a classical symphony, jazz quartet, folk duo and some amplified rock music (the Boss), if I possibly can in a meaningful way. I also notice that certain high resolution music streamed on Qobuzz suggests that my amplifier is absolutely fine, while other high res music seems to clamor for more watts to get to even 80 dbs (early James Taylor or Cat Stevens seems to beg for more power -- no puns please). Hence the question: would my system sound better with more capacity? I don't have the funds to trade up and out constantly in search of the holy grail as apparently some do if my eyes don't deceive me reading some of the feedback on Audiogon and other sites. That's frankly why I am intrigued with this forum. I have some meager understanding of the science, but that doesn't seem to explain the Pass Labs XA30.8 vs Alan Shaw's 500 watts. The answer appears to lay somewhere in between.

 

[warnerwh]

If you are talking about two properly designed amplifiers the sound quality improvement is nil. An amp with more power will not sound better than a lower powered amp that is also properly designed. That said whenever one buys a new piece of equipment they are excited and listen harder than usual which makes them think the new piece of gear or wire is responsible for the improvement in sound quality. Believe it or at least open your mind to the possibility that two properly designed power amplifiers can sound the same. Numerous double blind tests have been done. I don't care what the naysayers say about double blind tests but if you can't hear a difference when you are really trying then if there is a difference it is inaudible, period.

 

[RayDunzl]

I also notice that certain high resolution music streamed on Qobuzz suggests that my amplifier is absolutely fine, while other high res music seems to clamor for more watts to get to even 80 dbs

If the two recordings are not recorded at similar levels, the quieter one will require more rotation of the volume knob to sound as loud as the other if played back through the same amplifier.

Rotating the volume knob does not change the amplifier, it increases the signal input level to the amplifier.

In the above, about 8.9dB gain has to be applied to the lesser signal to equal the greater, to achieve a similar average sound level at the ear.

 

[direstraitsfan98]

I appreciate the input. The problem I am grappling with, and with which I have never been able to receive a thorough explanation, is not whether more watts merely plays louder, but does it make the system sound better. Pushing the gas pedal on a Ford vs a BMW gives you a completely different experience. Even cruising at 60, one gives you a ready reserve that the other doesn't. I fully understand the doubling the power gives you a three DB gain, but what I don't understood is how one person can talk about how lovely a Pass Labs XA30.8 sounds with Harbeth 30.2s compared with Alan Shaw bragging about how his 40.2s can handle 500 or more watts and sound spectacular. I do not wish to listen to Metallica had ear crushing levels (indeed I don't listen to headbanger music), but I do wish to enhance the listening experience in a classical symphony, jazz quartet, folk duo and some amplified rock music (the Boss), if I possibly can in a meaningful way. I also notice that certain high resolution music streamed on Qobuzz suggests that my amplifier is absolutely fine, while other high res music seems to clamor for more watts to get to even 80 dbs (early James Taylor or Cat Stevens seems to beg for more power -- no puns please). Hence the question: would my system sound better with more capacity? I don't have the funds to trade up and out constantly in search of the holy grail as apparently some do if my eyes don't deceive me reading some of the feedback on Audiogon and other sites. That's frankly why I am intrigued with this forum. I have some meager understanding of the science, but that doesn't seem to explain the Pass Labs XA30.8 vs Alan Shaw's 500 watts. The answer appears to lay somewhere in between.

Alan Shaw's comment was directed to the 40.2 which is a different animal from the 30.2. The 40.2 is a 3 way speaker, is around 4 times the size and volume of the 30.2 and is meant for much larger rooms. By their design nature, 3 way speakers can handle a lot more power. And that's not necessarily a good thing. A lot of power gets wasted into the complex crossovers. So it's less of a boast then Alan makes it out to be.

Regarding my rec for the Pass, it was my experience that it was the better sounding amp compared to the few others I tried. I routinely drove the XA30.8 into class AB bias, and if I had to guess was approaching over 120W at times in my rather small room. As I said, I can imagine if you were using the 30.2 in a medium sized or even a large size room, you'd run into mechanical limitations of the 30.2 and it would start sounding very harsh, distorted sounding far before you overload it with power.

 

[Pjetrof]

Anything with 150watt at 6 ohms will be good!

 

[Pjetrof]

I used the Harbeths with following amplifiers
primaluna dialogue hp 2xpower and pre
accuphase e650
behringer a800
quad elite pre and quad elite qsp
in blind test i could not tell which was playing!

 

[Pjetrof]

I kept the quad just good serviceable.
i liked the retro design with the harbeth design thats it

 

[DSJR]

Please forgive my grumpy mood in this, but this shit was sorted out ages ago on the HUG as well as my trying to mention it on a Facebook Harbeth page..

HELP Willem please

The CURRENT Harbeth designs, more than ever, have an impedance curve that's prettyy much solid-state amp agnostic but which might possibly be affected if you must use an old-fashioned valve/tube amp design (or a Croft solid state with 2 ohm output impedance). The 30.2's are still a bit warm-tubby toned but they're *substantially* flatter in measurements than the original M30's as tested here a while back, the originals designed to drop in replace the 'donor' LS5/9 speaker. Once the beeb didn't need any more, the 30.1 and 30.2 came along with a more neutral balance as I'm sure you appreciate. Add a bit of background, it also seems Harbeth may well have bought into the Klippel way of testing and there's a short thread on the HUG mentioning Klippel recommended amps to do the job reliably and not expensively, although some may be fan cooled and not entirely suitable (a Samson mono model was suggested which can be got on Amazon I believe), so I for one have high hopes for their future, the initial results being in the beneficially tweaked 'XD' models I reckon, but I have no proof and I digress.

As far as amps are concerned, PLEASE ignore many high end dealers who listen with their eyes and relate to the price tags - Pass Labs indeed!!!!! Sorry, but Pass is a luxury expensive brand pandering to a wealthy gear-enthusiast as much as anything else.. You can ideally drive your 30.2's with one of the Yamaha integrateds quite happily (the chassis has been discussed here and seems not so different from designs signed off decades ago - why change something that works well and reliably?). OK, not much cachet there in a $1k integrated, so we'll look further (in my case from a UK-centic piont of view).

The current amp brand of favour is the HEGEL brand. Clean looking, nice dacs inside I gather and amps which perform properly. I'd probably say the 120 for nearfield use and the larger one for most open plan style rooms (the power on peaks really is appreciated with piano, choral and much 'EM' music I play if allowed to give the system some welly - valve amps usually soft clip so appear louder than they really are as apparently 'we' can tolerate up to 10db of compression - the study was in an old BBC paper I remember). I had a wonderful time listening to the C7XD and M30.2XD using a Hegel 120 at sensible 'domestic' levels and have to say the former model enchanted me which its predecessors never did. the 30.2XD didn't initially sound much different from memories of yours in this dem situation but obviously, no A-B comparisons. The Hegel is discrete to look at and the two main controls 'feel nice' and are easy to use, for what it's worth. Uk supply and servicing ok now - it wasn't a year or so back I gather.

I'm a lifelong Quad fan, admitting they didn't always hit the target at first when under UK ownership. The current Artera version of the 606 power amp is still an excellent all-round amp which now looks a bit sharper I think and judging by previous versions, measures soundly too. I've heard it into Harbeths with the Artera Play CD-preamp and it was a lovely sound again. When this nonsense is over, I shall hopefully be able to do more hands on listening.

Perhaps not powerful enough for larger rooms, but the bigger Rega amps are good, the larger models feeling more solid over the baby Brio R. Measurements of ones I've seen are ok with no major flaws and well enough balanced I believe but not spectacular (Rega couldn't give a stuff about beating SINAID figures as much of this can't easily be heard).

More luxury and status enhancement needed? have a look at the 100W Luxmans! Solid luxury build and it's not all air inside either - heck, they've got METERS too Built like amps used to be built before the cottage industries took over. The Krell Vanguard also sounded superb when I used one into SHL5+'s and it really woke them up and made them perform in terms of dynamic range, but I worry about servicing if ever needed, at least in the UK, but obviously in their home market, things will be different.

That enough for you? I haven't even started on the Hypex/Purifi based amps of which the March Audio ones look superbly built and finished - something a Harbeth owner would appreciate. Since I have multiple analogue sources, I tend to look for a decent analogue preamp and feel sad Schiit abandoned the solid state Freya S, at least for now. Many others have lavish casework which accounts for much of the prices asked (along with dealer margins of course)

 

[bsf]

Thanks to all for the input. I must confess that I enjoyed the "grumpy" englishman especially. Some of the equipment you discuss is difficult to acquire in the U.S. I was running the Harbeth's with a Hegel H190 at one point and replaced it with my Prima Luna preamp and the old horse of an amp. I find that I like the sound that the tubes impart, but powered by a SS amp. At this juncture, I think that I'll stand pat with my vintage YBA Passion at least until the world returns to enough normal that I can actually go out and listen to some other equipment. I do find great pleasure in the sound now coming from my Harbeth's, but constantly wonder whether it is indeed true, as suggested herein, that all well-built amps are agnostic (or fairly so). Notwithstanding the objective science of the physics, there is too much information supporting the subjective aspect of listening to music. It's hard for the unsophisticated to know what amps are actually built better and what amps are so much the product of good marketing. When I go on forums like Audiogon, I feel that I am not being taking seriously because the known scribes seem to simply shout back and forth at each other and also have the apparent ability to change equipment like socks. It is also becoming more difficult to actually listen before you buy as brick and morter dealers are fewer and fewer. That is why I do find it valuable to "listen" in on these sorts of discussions. I am still left with the question of how important power reserve is to the music coming from all of these expensive components. I conclude from many of the discussions that there is a view that all watts are not created equal even though they are a unit of measurement. I have no desire to spend gobs of money simply to show off a new piece of high brow equipment. Still, I have to give credence to those who find that the Pass Labs equipment is worthwhile to them. Personally, I would love to finally conclude either that my YBA is enough or that spending (only) $2000 on a Audio by Van Alstine Vision SET 400 power amp with its 225 wpc would ultimately do the trick for me. Yet Frank Van Alstine is maligned by some in the forums for not publishing sufficient technical information, yet when you talk with him he is a no BS person who clearly knows how to build this stuff. I plan to keep my Harbeth 30.2s because out of the many, many loudspeakers I have listened to in over 40 years of serious listening, they are the most pleasant I have found. They are never fatiguing and their midrange is sublime. I frankly don't see the need to augment with a sub because my take on these speakers is that they present the music as recorded. I am simply endeavoring to compliment them to bring out their very best. So thanks to all and I will continue to follow this forum because it is, so far, the best I've come across. Cheers.

 

[Bear123]

As another idea, if the goal is to improve sound quality.........grab a Denon 3600 or 3700 AVR. The amp section is as good or better than most expensive audiophile pieces.....if your goal is neutrality, accuracy, audibly transparent electronics. The reason for suggesting this is that it will allow you to integrate a good quality pair of subs. The Denon will handle bass managament, eq on the speakers below Schroeder, excellent and very easy integration and eq on the subs, and will provide a very substantial improvement in sound quality versus two speakers without subs or eq and expensive but lower performing, less accurate/neutral audiophile amps/pres.

A good pair of speakers, a good pair of well placed, properly integrated subs, neutral & adequate power, and eq on everything below Schroeder is the basic foundation for high fidelity sound quality. Anything less is a substantial compromise.

Its hard to shake the old, long ingrained subjective audiophile gobbledygook of "matching" or "pairing" amps, pre's, speakers, cables, DAC's, power conditioners etc to get the right sound. A great saying to keep in mind when it comes to audio...." a fool and his money are soon parted".

As far as the need for subs....I would have to disagree that the speakers present the music as recorded. This is factually, objectively false. Studio recording rooms always use eq on their speakers to provide accurate sound below Schroeder, and often use subs to supplement the low end and correct the horrible train wreck of inaccurate sound that results from two speakers in a room without eq and/or subs.

One of the basic foundations for high fidelity is a neutral, accurate frequency response across the entire audible spectrum. Small speakers are not capable of playing the lowest frequencies at all, let alone with accuracy. Below 300 Hz or so, what you are hearing is far from what was recorded since the un-eq'd response in room is actually heavily altered/eq'd by the room itself...hence, not remotely close to what was a recorded.

Hoping you at list consider this paradigm shift as it will be the biggest sound quality improvement you can accomplish, orders of magnitude more than swapping electronics.