Stereo Bass using subwoofers

[sigbergaudio]

When I look at pictures in Google search, I see plenty of examples where a floor tom is recorded with single mic. I wonder if it is a good example to use for testing stereo bass....

Let's say we have electronic music where bass notes are panned hard side to side, would you not "feel" a difference using single mono sub on one side vs stereo subs?

Well, from that perspective any single instrument is just that.

If you have deep bass notes panned hard side to side, you would typically get less and more uneven bass response if you had a stereo sub setup. But this is not how deep bass notes are typically mixed, even in electronic music.

 

[Pdxwayne]

Well, from that perspective any single instrument is just that.

If you have deep bass notes panned hard side to side, you would typically get less and more uneven bass response if you had a stereo sub setup. But this is not how deep bass notes are typically mixed, even in electronic music.

The question is about audibility, and not about how deep bass notes are"typically" mixed, right?

So, you basically agree that with the right kind of stereo bass notes, you can "sense" a different. Thanks for the reply.
: )

 

[sigbergaudio]

The question is about audibility, and not about how deep bass notes are"typically" mixed, right?

So, you basically agree that with the right kind of stereo bass notes, you can "sense" a different. Thanks for the reply.
: )

If they do not contain any data below ~100hz, then no I don't think so.

I think any bass notes that you are able to localize are either

a) consisting of a broader band spectrum of sound meaning parts of it is actually reproduced by the speakers (this is the case where you feel you benefit from stereo subwoofers),

or b) your subwoofer is making noises (cabinet vibrations or port noises) that allows you to localize a non-symmetrical subwoofer placement.

I have a stereo setup with dual subwoofers placed symmetrically relatively close to the speakers (just on the inside of each speaker), crossed at 100hz. Even when crossed at 120hz I am not able to sense any loss of stereo perspective or loss of spatial information when switching to mono. There is not a lot of audible difference between mono/stereo in this particular setup, but I'm running them mono since that gives me even bass response over the widest seating area. To me personally this easily outweighs the theoretical loss of stereo information that I cannot hear, and that are not even there to begin with in most productions.

 

[Pdxwayne]

If they do not contain any data below ~100hz, then no I don't think so.

I think any bass notes that you are able to localize are either

a) consisting of a broader band spectrum of sound meaning parts of it is actually reproduced by the speakers (this is the case where you feel you benefit from stereo subwoofers),

or b) your subwoofer is making noises (cabinet vibrations or port noises) that allows you to localize a non-symmetrical subwoofer placement.

I have a stereo setup with dual subwoofers placed symmetrically relatively close to the speakers (just on the inside of each speaker), crossed at 100hz. Even when crossed at 120hz I am not able to sense any loss of stereo perspective or loss of spatial information when switching to mono. There is not a lot of audible difference between mono/stereo in this particular setup, but I'm running them mono since that gives me even bass response over the widest seating area. To me personally this easily outweighs the theoretical loss of stereo information that I cannot hear, and that are not even there to begin with in most productions.

Again, this is about audibility of stereo sub bass and not about the music you typically listen or your preference.

Let's say there is just a 60hz bass tone being played and it is being panned right and left, would you sense a different using a single mono sub on one side vs using stereo subs?

 

[sigbergaudio]

Again, this is about audibility of stereo sub bass and not about the music you typically listen or your preference.

Let's say there is just a 60hz bass tone being played and it is being panned right and left, would you sense a different using a single mono sub on one side vs using stereo subs?

After 19 pages it gets hard to stick to the original premise, but that was "Anyone have experience running 2 subs in a stereo vs mono configuration?"

So what you are asking about is something different.

My post was with regards to whether when you have two subs symmetrically placed, will you miss out on any stereo information or perspective if you run them in stereo vs mono? I think the answer to this is no for all practical purposes.

If I understand your question correct, you're asking would we be able to sense the difference between stereo subs (I assume placed by the speakers(?)), as opposed to a single subwoofer to the side of the room? If nothing else than this single tone were playing, I'm sure it would sound different due to it activating different nodes in the room based on the placement. Would I be able to tell you where the subwoofer was if I didn't know? I don't think I would. I don't think you would either.

 

[GimeDsp]

Stereo or mono getting the most out of subs is a fine art. Or science.
My test are done in a treated room with $13000 of treatment.

All of my tests are done on a mixdown environment.

Single LP, 67.5" listening triangle.

For my desktop system and home theater im not too concerned.
As long as it sounds decent I'm happy.

 

[Pdxwayne]

After 19 pages it gets hard to stick to the original premise, but that was "Anyone have experience running 2 subs in a stereo vs mono configuration?"

So what you are asking about is something different.

My post was with regards to whether when you have two subs symmetrically placed, will you miss out on any stereo information or perspective if you run them in stereo vs mono? I think the answer to this is no for all practical purposes.

If I understand your question correct, you're asking would we be able to sense the difference between stereo subs (I assume placed by the speakers(?)), as opposed to a single subwoofer to the side of the room? If nothing else than this single tone were playing, I'm sure it would sound different due to it activating different nodes in the room based on the placement. Would I be able to tell you where the subwoofer was if I didn't know? I don't think I would. I don't think you would either.

Would you please try this song with your setup, using stereo subs vs mono subs?

Listen for the double bass. Any difference at all? Try different crossover points, as you mentioned you couldn't sense a difference even at 120hz.

 

[Pdxwayne]

After 19 pages it gets hard to stick to the original premise, but that was "Anyone have experience running 2 subs in a stereo vs mono configuration?"

So what you are asking about is something different.

My post was with regards to whether when you have two subs symmetrically placed, will you miss out on any stereo information or perspective if you run them in stereo vs mono? I think the answer to this is no for all practical purposes.

If I understand your question correct, you're asking would we be able to sense the difference between stereo subs (I assume placed by the speakers(?)), as opposed to a single subwoofer to the side of the room? If nothing else than this single tone were playing, I'm sure it would sound different due to it activating different nodes in the room based on the placement. Would I be able to tell you where the subwoofer was if I didn't know? I don't think I would. I don't think you would either.

Another video for you to check out.

With my 2.1 setup, mono bass crossed at 80hz, sub near right speaker, I felt bass shakes more on the right side of my body.

With my 2.2 setup with stereo subs, I also felt more shakes on right side of my body.

Before you comment that it is room issue, listen to the song using headphones. Can you sense which side got more shakes?

How is the feel on your body when you do dual mono subs crossed at 120hz? You still feel shakes more on the right or it moves to the middle?

 

[Soundmixer]

Pink noise has nothing to do with how music with real instruments works. You also have a time domain parameter when musicians play real music thats very important

This is once again incorrect information. We are talking about BASS FREQUENCIES, you know, those under 60hz. Time-domain at those frequencies is irrelevant unless we are talking about modal ringing.

Using only one subwoofer, even if its the worlds best, in a stereosystem will always mess up the perceived pitch of each bass tone, because of the ( to long ) distances and phase distortion between the subwoofer and L/R loudspeaker.

Once again, incorrect information. If bass management is employed, there is no distortion between the subwoofer and L/R speakers as the mains output would be rolling off as the subwoofer output kicks in. It is also a false notion that pitch is affected by the interaction between the mains and a subwoofer. You will get relative levels of interactive cancellation and reinforcement, but that affects amplitude, not pitch. If what you say is true, then all home theaters and multichannel music systems are flawed right at the start, and we all know that is not true.

Thats the reason why two main loudspeakers always sound better in some parameters of music reproduction, if you turn off the single subwoofer completely.

Let me ask you this question. How many main speakers are there in the market that can play loudly down to 20hz with low distortion? Not many, so your comment is flawed right from the gate. This idea that two main speakers playing bass is better than a subwoofer, is also flawed based on this.

 

[Soundmixer]

When I look at pictures in Google search, I see plenty of examples where a floor tom is recorded with single mic. I wonder if it is a good example to use for testing stereo bass....

I would say no. A floor tom has transient information that goes up into the lower midrange. We are talking about bass frequencies, those that lie under 60hz. If you want to test for stereo bass, you have to filter all frequencies above 60hz out of the equation. We are talking BASS frequencies, not midbass, and not instruments that are transient rich above 80hz.

Let's say we have electronic music where bass notes are panned hard side to side, would you not "feel" (body feels) a difference using single mono sub on one side vs stereo subs?

First, any sound mixer that pans bass notes hard right or left does not know what the hell they are doing. Second, you would feel the pressure of the bass, but you could not tell if it was coming from the left or right, bass frequencies are omnidirectional. It does not matter if you have two main speakers or a single sub.

Do you understand the difference between two subs and stereo? They are not the same thing. Stereo requires the ability to detect direction via interaural time delays between the ears. There is no interaural time delay at frequencies below 60hz unless you are in a room 36ft wide, and the subwoofers are located in the opposite corners of the room. You also keep forgetting that the bass in most music nowadays is mono, not stereo. You don't "feel" stereo, you have to "hear" it.

 

[Tangband]

I would say no. A floor tom has transient information that goes up into the lower midrange. We are talking about bass frequencies, those that lie under 60hz. If you want to test for stereo bass, you have to filter all frequencies above 60hz out of the equation. We are talking BASS frequencies, not midbass, and not instruments that are transient rich above 80hz.


First, any sound mixer that pans bass notes hard right or left does not know what the hell they are doing. Second, you would feel the pressure of the bass, but you could not tell if it was coming from the left or right, bass frequencies are omnidirectional. It does not matter if you have two main speakers or a single sub.

Do you understand the difference between two subs and stereo? They are not the same thing. Stereo requires the ability to detect direction via interaural time delays between the ears. There is no interaural time delay at frequencies below 60hz unless you are in a room 36ft wide, and the subwoofers are located in the opposite corners of the room. You also keep forgetting that the bass in most music nowadays is mono, not stereo. You don't "feel" stereo, you have to "hear" it.

Classical recordings do NOT have the bass mixed in mono - they dont need it with streaming material and CD.

 

[Soundmixer]

Classical recordings do NOT have the bass mixed in mono - they dont need it with streaming material and CD.

Classic recordings also do NOT have much bass either. You can point out organ pedals for sure but at those frequencies the bass is omnidirectional and you still won't hear stereo.

Before you start experimenting here, you might want to study how the ear/brain mechanism works. Start with how we detect directional information.

 

[Tangband]

Classic recordings also do NOT have much bass either. You can point out organ pedals for sure but at those frequencies the bass is omnidirectional and you still won't hear stereo.

Before you start experimenting here, you might want to study how the ear/brain mechanism works. Start with how we detect directional information.

What you say is incorrect and shows that you dont know anything about classical recordings. A symphony orchestra can have sound from thimpanys and contra basses thats really deep in frequency. I have done experiments many years with mono and stereo subwoofers, 1,2 or 4 of them . Im also a semiprofessional loudspeaker constructor, recording engineer and have a masters degree in music.

From what Ím reading from you, it seems that you dont have any real experience with different set-ups and that you only writing what you have been reading from others.

The best way to learn for real, is to do your own recordings and do playback with your own constructed dsp loudspeakers. In that way you will understand how its all connected.

 

[MakeMineVinyl]

What you say is incorrect and shows that you dont know anything about classical recordings. A symphony orchestra can have sound from thimpanys and contra basses thats really deep in frequency. I have done experiments many years with mono and stereo subwoofers, 1,2 or 4 of them . Im also a semiprofessional loudspeaker constructor, recording engineer and have a masters degree in music.

From what Ím reading from you, it seems that you dont have any real experience with different set-ups and that you only writing what you have been reading from others.

The best way to learn for real, is to do your own recordings and do playback with your own constructed dsp loudspeakers. In that way you will understand how its all connected.

When recording classical music (especially when an organ is involved) using widely spaced omnidirectional microphones, there can't help but be random - and dynamically changing - low frequency phase information captured. Its impossible for this to not be so. Stereo subwoofers will reproduce this random phase information in the listening room - mono subwoofers won't. Using coincident microphone techniques, the amount of random phase low frequency sound will be less. While the ear cannot localize low frequency tones below 80Hz or so, they are not the only sensory mechanism - the body can feel low frequency sound - ever stood next to a truck or locomotive? Was there any question which side of your body the low frequencies were coming from? You can always plug your ears to eliminate higher frequencies to test this. The body can sense the rough direction that the low frequency stimulus is coming from. While that might not be called 'imaging', its really an academic distinction if the information is sensed and decoded.

 

[Flaesh]

ever stood next to a truck or locomotive?

https://www.danleysoundlabs.com/tom-danleys-mic-recordings/ - Train starting up going south and Full coal train with helper. Nice home listening
@Tom Danley, how far from trains mics was placed?

 

[MakeMineVinyl]

https://www.danleysoundlabs.com/tom-danleys-mic-recordings/ - Train starting up going south and Full coal train with helper. Nice home listening
@Tom Danley, how far from trains mics was placed?

Those sound fun on my relatively small office speakers - I'll have to try them out on the main system!

 

[Flaesh]

I'll have to try

Please tell us about bodily sensations when you listen!

 

[Soundmixer]

What you say is incorrect and shows that you dont know anything about classical recordings. A symphony orchestra can have sound from thimpanys and contra basses thats really deep in frequency. I have done experiments many years with mono and stereo subwoofers, 1,2 or 4 of them . Im also a semiprofessional loudspeaker constructor, recording engineer and have a masters degree in music

First, you don't know what I know and what I don't know about classical music recordings. I would focus on what you do know, and that would be what I post here. Second, for all of your "credentials", you don't seem to mention psychoacoustic or acoustics in your soup. Perhaps that is what you should be looking into, as nothing in your current tool belt shows that knowledge or experience.

Timpanys lowest fundamental is at 60hz, the contrabass is about 40hz. That is not DEEP BASS, that is just the bass. If you have done all of these experiments, publish your results here where we can see them

From what Ím reading from you, it seems that you dont have any real experience with different set-ups and that you only writing what you have been reading from others.

Cut the crap, you are deflecting. You don't know what my experience is, so stick to what you do know. Prove your point, or you are just posturing and throwing shitake against a wall to see what sticks. You are all over the place with non-factual information, and if you have all of the credentials you state you have, you should have no problem proving your point. Do it!

The best way to learn for real, is to do your own recordings and do playback with your own constructed dsp loudspeakers. In that way you will understand how its all connected.

More bullshitake!! You have made a series of statements that you are now asking me to prove. That is not my job, that is yours. Once again, you should focus your knowledge on how the ear/brain mechanism works because it is clear as a bell you don't know how it works. Once you understand that, then come back and make these unfounded claims again - if you are not too embarrassed to do so.

 

[Soundmixer]

When recording classical music (especially when an organ is involved) using widely spaced omnidirectional microphones, there can't help but be random - and dynamically changing - low frequency phase information captured.

Low-frequency phase information does not equal stereo. There is no interchannel time delay at low frequencies so that random low-frequency information comes across as spaciousness and identifies the size of the space, but it is not stereo.

Stereo subwoofers will reproduce this random phase information in the listening room - mono subwoofers won't.

At very low frequencies it doesn't matter. Even if two subs could reproduce this random phase information, it will still sound mono in the room.

While the ear cannot localize low frequency tones below 80Hz or so, they are not the only sensory mechanism - the body can feel low frequency sound - ever stood next to a truck or locomotive?

Your body cannot feel stereo, your ears have to hear it. This is not an effective example of "stereo" bass.

Was there any question which side of your body the low frequencies were coming from?

You will feel it ALL OVER YOUR BODY, not just one side of it. Low frequencies have wavelengths so long, they envelop the entire body, not just one side of it. Do you really think your body will shade a wavelength that is 28 to 56ft long? No way in hell this is physically possible. Low frequencies are not directional, so one side of your body won't feel something the other would not.

The body can sense the rough direction that the low frequency stimulus is coming from. While that might not be called 'imaging', its really an academic distinction if the information is sensed and decoded.

If you use one sub, you are correct. If you use two spaced subs(front and back of the room) or if you use 4 subs (in all corners), it is impossible to know where the LF stimulus is coming from. If you don't have imaging, you don't have stereo PERIOD!

 

[MakeMineVinyl]

Low-frequency phase information does not equal stereo. There is no interchannel time delay at low frequencies so that random low-frequency information comes across as spaciousness and identifies the size of the space, but it is not stereo.

At very low frequencies it doesn't matter. Even if two subs could reproduce this random phase information, it will still sound mono in the room.

Your body cannot feel stereo, your ears have to hear it. This is not an effective example of "stereo" bass.

You will feel it ALL OVER YOUR BODY, not just one side of it. Low frequencies have wavelengths so long, they envelop the entire body, not just one side of it. Do you really think your body will shade a wavelength that is 28 to 56ft long? No way in hell this is physically possible. Low frequencies are not directional, so one side of your body won't feel something the other would not.

If you use one sub, you are correct. If you use two spaced subs(front and back of the room) or if you use 4 subs (in all corners), it is impossible to know where the LF stimulus is coming from. If you don't have imaging, you don't have stereo PERIOD!

You're absolutely correct about everything. Now please go away.