Stereo Bass using subwoofers

[abdo123]

That sounds cool. make up a quick
if you could mark up the location you are talking about that be great.
View attachment 154291

 

[abdo123]

@GimeDsp

Btw Seven nation army indeed has a decent amount of stereo sub-bass, but it's much lower in amplitude than the mono sub-bass.
(I substracted inverted right from left to remove mono and did a spectrum analysis)

I don't have any interest in testing this but my bet is on the mono sub-bass masking the stereo sub-bass.

 

[Pdxwayne]

@GimeDsp

Btw Seven nation army indeed has a decent amount of stereo sub-bass, but it's much lower in amplitude than the mono sub-bass.
(I substracted inverted right from left to remove mono and did a spectrum analysis)

I don't have any interest in testing this but my bet is on the mono sub-bass masking the stereo sub-bass.

View attachment 154301

Is it this one?

The mono, is it the drum?

The stereo, are those the bass guitars on left and right?

I listen to the YouTube video with my Samsung Note 9 and KTB k371 and I can distinctly hear all three: left bass guitar, middle drum, right bass guitar.

Am I missing other bass?

Thanks!

 

[GimeDsp]

@GimeDsp

Btw Seven nation army indeed has a decent amount of stereo sub-bass, but it's much lower in amplitude than the mono sub-bass.
(I substracted inverted right from left to remove mono and did a spectrum analysis)

I don't have any interest in testing this but my bet is on the mono sub-bass masking the stereo sub-bass.

View attachment 154301

Thanks for checking that out. To be honest the consumer part of me doesn't want to know all the tricks they use on the songs I like.

When I am mixing live events my brain does 2 modes, "critical listening" and "enjoy", and it's hard to switch between them.

When I am working on DSP/studio set up it's a little easier because the pressure of getting things great isn't immediate. for my own playback system I just want something to enjoy and not be critical at all.

I believe on some songs like 7th nation army, 2 mono subs will give the best punch/energy, since all the content will be feeding both subs instead of favoring one.

 

[GimeDsp]

Is it this one?

The mono, is it the drum?

The stereo, are those the bass guitars on left and right?

I listen to the YouTube video with my Samsung Note 9 and KTB k371 and I can distinctly hear all three: left bass guitar, middle drum, right bass guitar.

Am I missing other bass?

Thanks!

Yeah, thats the song, it was VERY popular.

Sounds like stereo widener used on Kick and also stereo bass guitars/etc.
Hard to tell but a mono kick drum panned center will basically disappear when inverting one side(and panning both mono tracks to center)

Could also be 3 mics on kick. 1 mono and 2 stereo. People use all kinds of tricks!

 

[Tangband]

In my experience, the perceived pitch is slightly disturbed if you run one or two subs in mono.
If you listen closely what tones the bass-player plays, its always easier with two subwoofers in stereo.

One has to remember that the bass-player plays all frequencies at the same time, from 41 Hz ( lowest E on the bass ) to 8000 Hz . Its very unlike a sine-sweep when you do measurements.

 

[GimeDsp]

View attachment 154296

I just did this set up with my normal test tracks, very instense!

Mono, the LF energy felt very strong, the weight was there and would be awesome for HT set up.

Stereo, realism came back for bass guitar and drum set. EDM music was awesome but I felt like I was IN the drum kit instead of watching a drummer. I have been a drummer for decades, started at 8 years old with jazz and symphonic and proceeded from there. With this set up in stereo I closed my eyes and was literally sitting at the drum set.

Next up is to try the another recommend sub position of behind and half distance of mains.

PS, I am using Systune and level matching for each different set up.

 

[MakeMineVinyl]

I use stereo subs, operated in stereo, two per side 18". They are in the front corners of the room so why in the world I go out of my way to sum them to mono when it is easier to just leave them stereo? There is definitely no lack of 'impact' when needed, and the response if flat to 17Hz.

 

[GimeDsp]

I use stereo subs, operated in stereo, two per side 18". They are in the front corners so why in the world I go out of my way to sum them to mono? There is definitely no lack of 'impact' when needed, and the response if flat to 17Hz.

Based on what I've heard so for, if I wanted a "party" sound where the bass pumps more I would do mono. If I wanted an accurate sound, stereo. Both are cool.
If you have mains that go down to 50Hz and sub down to 20 the effect is less pronounced.

Carlz Tatz is a popular designer that uses stereo subs in corners, going up to 130Hz I believe to fix the Allison effect.
https://carltatzdesign.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/Brouchure-6-28-21-Reduced.pdf

since the goal of mixing/mastering is to balance the music to sell records and the goal of the end user is to enjoy the music, I am still not sure how all this fits in. I do know the end user with a well calibrated system and 2 subs is probably the absolute minority of users! I am sure there is a happy medium somewhere.

For mixer and mastering engineers they have plug ins that can switch "mono low end" in and out. So stereo subs gives them the ability to check both.
https://blog.mixanalog.com/mono-low-end-guide

For the end user, the genre of music they listen to will dictate any benefit they get from stereo subs.

On a side note I never run subs with desktop speakers, just never sounds right to me.
This stuff is really just part of a larger study I am doing and absorbers, diffusers, and other common treatments and how they affect sound stage.

 

[MakeMineVinyl]

Based on what I've heard so for, if I wanted a "party" sound where the bass pumps more I would do mono. If I wanted an accurate sound, stereo. Both are cool.

I originally had single subs (in stereo) but found that they couldn't keep up with the very efficient horn mains, so I went with two per side. This increased the 'Brick Shithouse Factor' by doubling the number of subs. What I have are earlier, and modified for lower extension by re-porting, versions of these.

 

[GimeDsp]

I originally had single subs (in stereo) but found that they couldn't keep up with the very efficient horn mains, so I went with two per side. This increased the 'Brick Shithouse Factor' by doubling the number of subs. What I have are earlier, and modified, versions of these.

thanks for making me laugh! that's an impressive set up!

 

[DonH56]

I run mine in mono and am far from a "party mode" kind of guy... I listen mainly to jazz and classical, with some old ("classic") rock and country thrown in, as well as movies (mostly action type, some drama).

How many subs are needed depends very much upon the room and desired SPL, natch. I have four 12" subs to help smooth the bass response due to suboptimal room dimensions; they would probably destroy the room if fully cranked so output is not the issue, just smoothing the in-room response.

 

[MakeMineVinyl]

I run mine in mono and am far from a "party mode" kind of guy... I listen mainly to jazz and classical, with some old ("classic") rock and country thrown in, as well as movies (mostly action type, some drama).

I'm not a party mode guy either, but I do listen to a lot of large pipe organs, and make recordings of same, and kind of like those frequencies produced by the 32' ranks.

 

[DonH56]

I'm not a party mode guy either, but I do listen to a lot of large pipe organs, and make recordings of same, and kind of like those frequencies produced by the 32' ranks.

Yup. Mine are run as a mono swarm, however... I figure not much chance of a 32' or 64' pipe sounding anything but mono in my room. I was referring to the post that said mono is for party people. Guess I fail.

 

[MakeMineVinyl]

Yup. Mine are run as a mono swarm, however... I figure not much chance of a 32' or 64' pipe sounding anything but mono in my room. I was referring to the post that said mono is for party people. Guess I fail.

The separation is felt more as directional pressure than anything which is directly audible. The difference is obvious when switching to mono or panning the LF, but my room is about 6000 cu ft.

Another reason I don't do mono subs is that active summing of bass frequencies could cause destructive interference on recordings with spaced omni mics. True they would still interact in my room, but I prefer this to be an acoustic mixing rather than an electronic one.

 

[GimeDsp]

Here is a quick look at a modern pop song, "Sunflower". Using the split to mono, center, invert, then low pass we can see the stereo LF content even in a modern pop song. The course has a big hit of panned/stereo LF in this song. You can see the inverted sum on top full loudness. then the progressive low passes. 100hz, 80, then 60. I used 24db but to simulate what most playback DSP has on subs but am willing to run a 48db per octave if requested.

Don't let the scaling full you, the 80hz LP audio is only 12db lower then the reference and is still VERY audible.

Won't Get Fooled Again also has a ton of panned/stereo LF"

In my mind there are 2 kinds of systems, and "Accurate system" and a "party system" If you are playing music with panned/stereo LF and have a mono LF system then you are no longer in the "accurate" bucket, call the other type whatever you like, I choose "party" because there are benifits to feeding all the panned/stereo LF into mono. For me those benefits are weight and punchiness, 2 traits I look for in a large format system for installed audio or venues, it's not a knock of any kind.

 

[abdo123]

I use stereo subs, operated in stereo, two per side 18". They are in the front corners of the room so why in the world I go out of my way to sum them to mono when it is easier to just leave them stereo? There is definitely no lack of 'impact' when needed, and the response if flat to 17Hz.

there is no reason to do mono bass if you’re not trying to minimize the seat to seat variance of an entire listening space.

That’s what i do with multiple subwoofer optimizer.

 

[abdo123]

I just did this set up with my normal test tracks, very instense!

Mono, the LF energy felt very strong, the weight was there and would be awesome for HT set up.

Stereo, realism came back for bass guitar and drum set. EDM music was awesome but I felt like I was IN the drum kit instead of watching a drummer. I have been a drummer for decades, started at 8 years old with jazz and symphonic and proceeded from there. With this set up in stereo I closed my eyes and was literally sitting at the drum set.

Next up is to try the another recommend sub position of behind and half distance of mains.

PS, I am using Systune and level matching for each different set up.

Glad you enjoyed it, it’s very immersive indeed!

 

[Chromatischism]

In my experience, the perceived pitch is slightly disturbed if you run one or two subs in mono.

Was phase and EQ optimized so frequency response is the same? If not, you're going to get interactions. Integrating multiple subs is not as simple as plugging them in and pressing play.

 

[GimeDsp]

Last set up I tried today. Spent half the day scraping wax from concrete countertops and moving speakers into another room in my house.
After the 2nd hour of moving speakers I was disheartened, then I though of Amir moving large speakers up and down steps and I felt better.

Based on the 2 positions tried today, to the side and to the rear extending 24 inches past apex I can say that for me, these to set ups are very immersive like you are on the stage and just feet away from live show.

Time alignment and EQ and FR are done for each step.