Stereo amps lacking HPF for mains in 2.1 setup… a big deal, or not?

[harrisonjr98]

This is cross-posted in the review thread for this amp. I am new here, if that is not kosher please let me know and I’ll remove one of them.

So I got an unbelievable steal on a Yammy A-S701 ($350, mint used) and I love the industrial design and performance measurements. In the AVR world I have been in for years, even the most exciting new gear feels disposable as the video tech advances so fast. I *love* the idea of a classic integrated stereo receiver sans crappy LCD screen or rapidly outdated tech. Just a solid amp to do the part and last decades.

Anyhow, I have always run 2.1 in my main setup, as I am about 50/50 music/movies but broadly more concerned with the fidelity of music than cinema. I am coming from an AVR that had bass management features, IE high-passing the mains at the crossover point of the sub to reduce load on the amp + speakers alike. I never used the HDMI passthrough or DSP stuff in the AVR and would love to outright replace it with the 701.

I have been scouring this and other forums for opinions on the necessity of HPF for mains in a 2.1 and my god are people split on the issue. In my mind there has to be a reason that next to zero integrated stereo amps have this feature- surely a better reason than the oft-quoted “people that buy these hate subwoofers anyway, if you want a sub get an AVR”… Well, this and other stereo amps offer the volume controlled sub out and I have a hard time believing they’d leave out a crucial feature if it really made that much of a difference?

Is it viable to cross over the sub quite a bit lower than I’m used to, to match the -3 rolloff of the speakers (~50hz), or does a crossover that low really take the purpose out of having a sub for anything but the rumbliest movies?

TL, DR- I have always taken a HPF for mains in a 2.1 for granted and went down a rabbit hole upon discovering that it is uncommon in integrated stereo amps. I’d like to replace my AVR with this amp and make it the centerpiece of my hybrid music/film setup for years to come. Am I overthinking things?

 

[tc2007]

I am in the same boat as you. I have a 2.1 and cannot go back running full range on mains. This is not about the subwoofer or crossover. This is about not stressing out the LR speakers with anything below 80hz at the same time stressing the integrated amp. When you run mains at full frequency, everybody suffers. It's a loose loose situation. Most speakers are not good at running full range unless you provide a hefty amp. Cross them over at 80hz or even 100hz and I see a definite improvement in midrange and overall experience is improved a whole lot. Plus I get real heavy bass from my subwoofer that the mains can never replicate.

I was lucky enough to get my hands on an Arcam Music Solo with 2.1 and has automatic HPF at 90hz. There are other class D / Digital amps that do this.

* SVS Soundbase Pro
* SMSL A300
* Sabaj A30A
* Emotiva TA1
* Emotiva TA2
* Parasound Halo Hint 6
* Parasound New Classic 200

These are the ones I know have HPF. There maybe more. No need to go AVR route given these are good quality options.

 

[harrisonjr98]

I am tempted by the TA-1. I was hoping there would be something out there in the AB world specifically, but I can understand why there might be more crossover(heh) in the class D market segment with people looking for this feature.

 

[tc2007]

I think the concept of using a sub with a stereo system is pretty recent. Maybe last decade? Hence you never see a dedicated sub out connection in most of equipments, except a pre-out which I think is mostly for an external amp. Could be cost related too.

 

[harrisonjr98]

It's surprising to me because I have to imagine there are a lot of primarily music listeners who don't feel a need for 5.1/7.1 setups (me) but like a sub filling in the low end and enabling a competent hybrid system for the occasional movie viewing. For this feature to be so common on AVRs and not integrated amps is surprising!

 

[jackdanyal]

I am in the same boat as you. I have a 2.1 and cannot go back running full range on mains. This is not about the subwoofer or crossover. This is about not stressing out the LR speakers with anything below 80hz at the same time stressing the integrated amp. When you run mains at full frequency, everybody suffers. It's a loose loose situation. Most speakers are not good at running full range unless you provide a hefty amp. Cross them over at 80hz or even 100hz and I see a definite improvement in midrange and overall experience is improved a whole lot. Plus I get real heavy bass from my subwoofer that the mains can never replicate.

I was lucky enough to get my hands on an Arcam Music Solo with 2.1 and has automatic HPF at 90hz. There are other class D / Digital amps that do this.

* SVS Soundbase Pro
* SMSL A300
* Sabaj A30A
* Emotiva TA1
* Emotiva TA2
* Parasound Halo Hint 6
* Parasound New Classic 200

These are the ones I know have HPF. There maybe more. No need to go AVR route given these are good quality options.

HPF is not a silver bullet. Sometimes it's better not to use HPF at all while listening to music. Movies are a completely different story. Here is the short text about HPF from one of the best subs brand

What is a High Pass Filter? | REL Acoustics

Learn more about High Pass Filters and the reasons why REL does not use them.

rel.net

 

[Dreamslayer]

I've tried the sub without the HPF and didn't care for it. When I was looking for my integrated amp (and moving away from 7.1) it was important to get bass management - which I found in the Parasound Halo Integrated Amp (original version). I picked one up for $1200 on Audiogon a couple years ago - I think the latest model is pushing $4k now.

Sound quality is fantastic and I have no issues with the Parasound except for it's size - it requires a stand/rack next to my desk when I would strongly prefer to be able to put all my gear on my actual desk. I guess my other complaint is that it's massively over powered for a pair of near-field LS50Ms (did I say it sounds amazing?)

So against my better judgement, I've started looking for something more compact.

A couple years ago, I tried the NAC C700 - it did everything I wanted and while I'm not overly picky, after a lot of back and forth, I decided the amp quality was too much of a step down.

I toyed with the idea of getting the WiiM Amp - in terms of features, it's basically perfect but reviews always seem to say "it sounds great...for this price point" which isn't encouraging. If WiiM makes a pre-amp version of that device, I think they won't be able to make enough to keep them in stock.

So I'm looking at the MiniDSP Flex + an external amp (yet to be identified, possibly an Aegir/Vidar)

I can't tell if I'm making a huge mistake or refining things - maybe the space issue is a small price to pay for being very happy with things overall.

Current system here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...s/your-desktop-audio-setup.12057/post-1822683

 

[tc2007]

The muscle in the Parasound helps drives the mains full range and that's why the lack of HPF is no big deal. These weaker Class D amps and AVRs, sure would get a benefit from a HPF.

PS: After looking at your setup, you are pretty much right in front of the speakers which means the DBs are low too. Helping your case.

 

[Dreamslayer]

The muscle in the Parasound helps drives the mains full range and that's why the lack of HPF is no big deal. These weaker Class D amps and AVRs, sure would get a benefit from a HPF.

PS: After looking at your setup, you are pretty much right in front of the speakers which means the DBs are low too. Helping your case.

It most certainly has a HPF: https://parasound.com/hint.php

 

[Schollaudio]

Looking at ASR published measurements for some of the speakers we can easily see that distortion rises quickly below 100 and on some 200hz.

Also, looking at ASR published subwoofers we can see decent\better distortion levels below 100hz.

Why not cut out that low frequency distortion and stress from the mains and cross into a lower distortion subwoofer?

I'm in favor of HPF mainly proper active crossovers.

 

[Yorkshire Mouth]

This particular issue is causing me much wailing and gnashing of teeth.

It’s amazing the number of speakers you see you reviewed by Amir and Erin which say “you’ll need a sub”, but then the lack of a facility to drive both sub and mains with a different frequency output is missing.

The new WiiM Amp shows it can be done. Fosi Audio have said they’re intending to do this with a future product. I just need a Topping PA5 with bass management and a sub out.

Come on you lot, get your act together!

 

[popej]

Come on you lot, get your act together!

Some clever manufacturers has put all needed components together, creating universal device, which include multiple input standards, streamer, DSP, DAC amplifier, bass management, room correction and more. Unfortunately they sell this product as audio-video component

 

[RosalieTheDog]

Minidsp Flex and a stereo power amp fits that bill, but that is considerably more expensive than the Wiim amp.

 

[Yorkshire Mouth]

Minidsp Flex and a stereo power amp fits that bill, but that is considerably more expensive than the Wiim amp.

Looking at Amir's review and measurements, I suspect onboard functionality could measure better, and cost a lot less.

 

[Punchrulle]

Or this one:

James Loudspeaker

www.jamesloudspeaker.com

 

[phoenixdogfan]

Another alternative is to buy a sub which has both a low pass and a high pass filter. The original SVS SB 1000's and 2000's have a 12 db/octave high pass at 80 db in addition to an adjustable low pass which makes them serviceable if a little limited with things like a Topping PA-5 or PA-7. And they still sell the originals out of the warehouse. I've seem OG SB 2000's being offered on sale for as low as $500 which is, IMHO, an outright steal.

 

[Yorkshire Mouth]

Another alternative is to buy a sub which has both a low pass and a high pass filter. The original SVS SB 1000's and 2000's have a 12 db/octave high pass at 80 db in addition to an adjustable low pass which makes them serviceable if a little limited with things like a Topping PA-5 or PA-7. And they still sell the originals out of the warehouse. I've seem OG SB 2000's being offered on sale for as low as $500 which is, IMHO, an outright steal.

This is true.

But for me, firstly, I already have a decent sub, and secondly I’d have to consider the ‘damage’ done to the signal for the fronts before reaching the amp.

 

[Yorkshire Mouth]

Why hasn’t someone released a little crossover box? Two in, three out. Quality components to protect the signal.

 

[Schollaudio]

Why hasn’t someone released a little crossover box? Two in, three out. Quality components to protect the signal.

Easy to find a pro unit, I use Ashly and EV AC1.

 

[Yorkshire Mouth]

Easy to find a pro unit, I use Ashly and EV AC1.

Cheers, very interesting. But they’re large, rack mount designs, and not cheap.