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Step Response: Does It Really Matter?

j_j

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He is all your's @j_j. I am done.

Likewise. He won't listen to actual math. I had hoped he'd notice that the impulse responses I posted were *NOT* periodic, but no, the lesson did not take.

I should add that no, reverb is not ITD's, envelopment means that there is less/no/specific kinds of relationship between the phase captured at the left and right ear, but it's not ITD's.

ITD is what the auditory system uses to create left/right signals (either directly via ITD's, or indirectly via pan-pot induced ITD's due to 2 channel interference at the head).

And in neither case does the period of a signal set its fastest ITD detection.
 
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j_j

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Apparently another article was written here, but has since met oblivion.

To answer one question, Benny, yes, in fact I *AM* the kind of person who can measure a speaker response and relate it to human perception. It's part of what I do every day at work.
 

DonH56

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bennybbbx

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when somebody tell step response does not show the speed of rise or fall time of a 2 way speaker bass mid system, then tell how should measure a speaker to see this better. there is also group delay measure. When measure group delay at diffrent volumes show how the delay change depend on speaker movements at a frequency or level. so can assume the speaker that change group delay less than 0.05 ms on very few volume and larger volume is ok for ITD. because on a stereo system both speakers do diffrent movements at same time. also there is rectangle impuls record possible. maybe there are other solutions i did not know.

but i do not want measure my speakers in all methods and then is say. this method is not good. so the speaker experts here should please suggest a better measure method
 

j_j

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Benny, go to www.aes.org/sections/pnw Go to the past meeting recaps, go back a few years, to the FFT workshop.

Right there is a clear way to measure loudspeakers, or the linear part of pretty much any audio system. It's freeware. You can just take it, load octave, use your favorite playback and capture methods, and have at.

Hint: It's not step response, it's IMPULSE response. But in any case, the period of a waveform is only a tiny bit of what matters. Please do study some basic Fourier analysis and understand linear superposition and how everything is built of sine waves (plural) not just ONE.

Did you look at those plots a few times ago. I assure you those waveforms have exactly the stated bandwidth, and there's no periodicity there to speak of, now, is there? I didn't do the minimum phase version, but you'd see the same thing there, just with the energy coming at the start of the signal, rather than in the middle.

This is all very basic math for signal processors, or should be.
 

bennybbbx

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ok, wy not say earlier that i should post impulse response. i look at this first of course because it see first in REW. result is same. large woofer mid of LP6 look very slow. most testers show step response so i do that too. to see woofer-mid impulse it is more important to measure only woofer in impulswe can not see delay between tweeter and woofer
kali 1.5 cm impulse response woofer-mid.jpg
eris 3.5 1.5 cm woofer-mid impulse response.jpg
. i measure this 1.5 cm away. The eris i measure today without tweeter connect. it is fullrange speaker and correct with EQ simular to Kali FR. even when i not EQ before measuru, eris is lots faster. the JBL because it is coaxial i can not measure because the coaxial system give more influence of tweeter and look faster. the LP6 are older measure but i own them, i can it measure again also at lower level maybe it get faster then. but if speed change alot depend on membrane move on kali this is worse for ITD the distance rew show is not correct, beacause i use no buffer size correction in rew. i use on all measure estimate IR delay.
 
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bennybbbx

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Here stand what i think before. the impulse response is the basic information that is later translate to better readable curves. in step response can see better the delay of tweeter or woofer than in impulse response i notice

https://audiojudgement.com/speaker-impulse-response/
An impulse response is something we use today, in the digital era, to make accurate and convenient frequency response and phase measurements. Besides frequency and phase, you can also extract step response, cumulative spectral decay, energy time curve, burst decay, etc. It packs a lot of data in a small amount of time, which can be decoded, thanks to the fast computers we have today, into the information we are interested in. However, even with these sophisticated techniques, measuring very low frequencies will remain a challenge in small rooms.
 

j_j

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Um, I said that back on about page 1. If you see multiple drivers one at a time on a loudspeaker impulse response the crossover needs a lot of work. I don't do IIR crossovers for a reason.
 
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No it doesn’t matter at all; the only thing that’s actually audible is fr response variations. Anything else is just playing into audiophile nervousia.
 

j_j

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No it doesn’t matter at all; the only thing that’s actually audible is fr response variations. Anything else is just playing into audiophile nervousia.

Nonsense, radiation pattern, phase/time response, matching between channels, at least can matter in addition to frequency response.
 

j_j

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What’s your evidence that it’s audible?

Seriously? You have to ask about matching between channels?

Go read Toole's work. Just do it. Then learn about direct vs. indirect sensation, how that interacts with rooms, the effects of rapid phase shift (as opposed to slow phase shift), and how the ear works. Learn about how directional cues and room responses affect sensation.

Toole's work is limited as to mechanism, but the measurements are pretty much immaculate. That, alone, is absolute proof of my comments in regard to time/phase response and radiation pattern.

I'd think matching between speakers was a no-brainer, but apparently not. Just set your balance control off a bit and tell me that doesn't bother you, ok?

I'll also add various forms of distortion, from driver distortion to port noise to cone breakup to sudden variations in radiation pattern due to cone modes as other things that are testably audible, that you also discount.

No, magnitude response is not the only thing. Even with magnitude response (which is what you're calling frequency response) are you evaluating first onset, total soundfield response, or what? You haven't even specified what you think matters.

Is it direct nearfield, direct farfield, overall power response, or what that you believe in.
 

DonH56

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DonH56

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The worst thing about the 'net is that decades of experience and knowledge can be so quickly dismissed and even ridiculed by anonymous posters...
 

audio2design

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Yeah the channel balancing makes sense, but that’s the only thing that’s actually audible. The rest is a bunch of bollocks to get to the wallet of audiophiles.

I have nothing to say. I am just reposting for posterity. I will let others decide whether ignorant or troll.

Personally DonH56, I think the worst thing is it lets people get really outraged about stuff that has 0 impact on them, but what you pointed out is pretty close.
 

j_j

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Yeah the channel balancing makes sense, but that’s the only thing that’s actually audible. The rest is a bunch of bollocks to get to the wallet of audiophiles.

So, you don't know anything, and won't go read papers. You're no better than the audiophools, you believe, you don't think.

Perhaps you should be more careful in making ridiculous, foolish claims.

You can't even, apparently, tell me which frequency response you think matters. So tell me, do you want total energy radiated frequency response, direct frequency response, windowed response, or what?

Can you at least tell me what you would measure? I doubt it.
 

j_j

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The amplitude differences in khz signals are the only thing that are audible, the rest is just a bunch of unnecessary bollocks.

That doesn't even mean anything.

Where do you measure this poorly defined signal? What time window? What contribution from local acoustics? Again, you simply deny the actual issues at hand, and can't even explain what you're talking about in terms of measurement. "The amplitude difference in khz signals" is not even an approximate description of any measurement technique.

As to your criticism of Toole's work, you're showing that you have NOT read it, nor do you know how to do a perceptual evaluation.

I would suggest that you actually READ Toole's work (hint: not "that paper" there are 20 or 30 papers) and stop badmouthing the people who actually understand the problems at hand.

You can start by apologizing to me, Don, and the rest of this board for your arrogant ignorance.

Nobody's talking about amplifiers, etc, here. These days they're not even an issue unless they're broken or some kind of "voiced" thing that one should not generally use in a test system.
 

AdamG

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Do I smell Troll? :confused: I think j_j_ needs to change his cologne choice. It’s attracting them! :D

I have applied one coat of Troll-b-gone. Let me know if more is required please.
 

j_j

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Do I smell Troll? :confused: I think j_j_ needs to change his cologne choice. It’s attracting them! :D

Well, this guy does fit one of the stereotype annoying people I meet in audio. Those who refuse to accept the science are quite common on both the "nothing matters" and the "audiophiliac" side.

This hasn't been very well helped by some older papers that are correct, but didn't choose the best kinds of test signals, in particular, the "phase doesn't matter" work that used 60Hz and 7kHz. No, phase between those two does not matter at all.

But, now, look at fast phase shift inside of one ERB, THAT matters. It can be profoundly weird, too.
 
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