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State of the Art passive full-range speakers?

chouca

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Hi all,

I'm looking for suggestions for passive main speakers to build a surround system around.

The speakers will be visible, so looks matter, and in that regard I find the Blades more attractive than the Perlistens (although the S7ts look pretty nice in natural ebony). I generally consider Sonus Faber speakers to be the world's most beautiful-looking, so the Blades are a departure, but they do look cool in a sculptural way. I don't like the look of utilitarian studio monitors, so no black boxes please. They should either be cool and sculptural, or like fine woodworking with metal accents.

I have no particular budget, but so far my short list consists of the Perlisten S7t, the KEF Blade Metas (though I'm unsure whether to go for the One or Two), and the Revel F328Be (though I don't love the wood on these). Magicos seem well-regarded, but I have yet to audition any.

The room will be 18' x 21' x 8.5', so 3213 cubic feet (91 cubic meters) and is not yet built, so any acoustical treatment that won't significantly reduce the room's size is possible if needed. I have an Anthem AVM90, which can manage up to 4 independent subs. My amplification is two Apollon PET 950 monoblocks.

I auditioned the Blade One Metas in the store for over an hour and was super impressed by their bass, imaging, and soundstaging. Try as I might, I could not convince myself that the sound was coming out of them! I've been an audiophile for 30 years and I've never experienced such a coherent acoustic image before. The bass was extended and visceral, even without a sub, which I believe helped create the very believable soundstage. As an example, in the song "Shallow" from A Star Is Born, the sense of huge live venue was totally palpable. It was incredibly effective and emotionally moving.

I've auditioned the Perlisten S7t with a subwoofer in my home for over a week now, and I can't say they have disappeared, or moved me in the same way, but it seems possible that the room is largely to blame? I'm going to try an audition in a treated room at the dealer after I return the speakers.

In a double-blind speakers shootout that I participated in recently, I liked the Revel F226Be. It turned out that the F328Be in that shootout had a problem with a very rolled-off treble, so if it's better than the 226, then I think I would have liked it a lot.

Past speakers that I have owned and enjoyed are the B&W Matrix 801 S3 in a fully-treated, dedicated media room. Stereo music was great, but the HTM1 center channel struggled to deliver intelligible dialog for movies. I also enjoy my Proac D15s in a reflective untreated family room for ambient, uncritical music listening. Timbrally, in that space, the D15s sound just right to me. I've auditioned some Sonus Faber speakers in the past and found them to have a tipped-up sibilance that really bugged me. The cabinetry was so beautiful-looking that I really wanted to like them, but couldn't.

Given all that, my questions are:

1. In other threads I have seen mentioned the existence of a thread on State of the Art Loudspeakers, but I can't find it. Does such a thread exist? I have kept up with MKR's fantastic thread.

2. Given my room size, would the Blade Ones or the Blade Twos be more appropriate? There doesn't seem to be a consensus on this and I can't audition the Blade Two Meta.

3. Which other speakers should I consider?

4. Are any Sonus Faber speakers serious contenders for state of the art, or should I forget about this brand?

5. What other speakers image and soundstage as well as the Blades? Is the Blade's disappearing act explained by measurements and if so, how?

6. Regarding my experience with the Perlistens and the Blades, I'm not looking for "which speaker is better" but rather an understanding of the meaningful differences between them and, where possible, which measurements might explain those differences. I know the S7t has less bass output, which I both hear and see in the response graph.

Phew, thanks for sticking with this, and any suggestions are appreciated!
 

subframe

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‘State of the art’ as it relates to speakers is a term that could mean many things to different people.

However, the Joseph Audio Perspective2 Graphene disappears and images better than any other speaker I’ve heard. Not sure the bass is ‘visceral’, but placement and/or subs could change that. And I imagine the Pearls probably offer similar magic + that low end.
 
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chouca

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When I say "state of the art", I suppose I mean "as good as consumer speakers can sound today", which presumably could be suggested by measurements.

I've been curious about Joseph Audio because they look great and seem well-regarded sonically.

The Salon 2s might fit the bill, though I don't love the wood. I thought they were being replaced by the 328Be, hence my interest.
 

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Inner Space

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... any suggestions are appreciated!
I've heard it said about people that when they show you who they are, you should believe them the first time. I think the same applies with speakers. You seem to have had a wholly positive and enthusiastic reaction to the Blade One Meta, after a long audition. Believe them the first time, and buy them!
 

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Ilkless

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Vimberg Mino

Given all that, my questions are:

1. In other threads I have seen mentioned the existence of a thread on State of the Art Loudspeakers, but I can't find it. Does such a thread exist? I have kept up with MKR's fantastic thread.



2. Given my room size, would the Blade Ones or the Blade Twos be more appropriate? There doesn't seem to be a consensus on this and I can't audition the Blade Two Meta.

I'd say the Twos can fit your room perfectly fine, but the Ones won't be too large.

3. Which other speakers should I consider?

Magico is a good call. Vimberg Mino. Vivid Kaya. Genelec 8361s are sculptural and curvy, and Genelec does custom colours at an upcharge.

4. Are any Sonus Faber speakers serious contenders for state of the art, or should I forget about this brand?

Modern Sonus Fabers are a far cry from the mystical audiophile brand they were in the 90s/early 2000s, their current speakers tend to measure well, not state-of-the-art but perfectly pleasurable, and of course their industrial design is exquisite. And it is manufactured at a large enough scale, and distributed in enough places that you're more likely to negotiate a favourable deal than smaller boutique brands.

5. What other speakers image and soundstage as well as the Blades? Is the Blade's disappearing act explained by measurements and if so, how?

Yes -- it is exquisitely smooth dispersing both vertically and horizontally to a degree very few speakers equal, and none beat outright.

6. Regarding my experience with the Perlistens and the Blades, I'm not looking for "which speaker is better" but rather an understanding of the meaningful differences between them and, where possible, which measurements might explain those differences. I know the S7t has less bass output, which I both hear and see in the response graph.

Perlisten's acoustic configuration is intrinsically significantly narrower-dispersing vertically, which would be perceived as a collapse in treble air and soundstage the further the listening height gets away from the tweeter, versus KEF. But it could also lead to a perceptually cleaner sound in-room as the room reflections are of a lower degree at least on the vertical axis.

Speaking very generally, well-engineered, smoothly-dispersing speakers of narrower dispersion tend to evoke a sense that "you are there" in the acoustic space of the recording, while similarly well-engineered speakers of broader dispersion tend to evoke a sense that "they (the performers) are here" in the listening room. Both are pleasurable auditory illusions, but it is personal preference which you lean towards.
 

sarumbear

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Spkrdctr

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Blades do look cool in a sculptural way.
The room will be 18' x 21' x 8.5', so 3213 cubic feet (91 cubic meters) and is not yet built, so any acoustical treatment that won't significantly reduce the room's size is possible if needed.

I auditioned the Blade One Metas in the store for over an hour and was super impressed by their bass, imaging, and soundstaging. Try as I might, I could not convince myself that the sound was coming out of them! I've been an audiophile for 30 years and I've never experienced such a coherent acoustic image before. The bass was extended and visceral, even without a sub, which I believe helped create the very believable soundstage. As an example, in the song "Shallow" from A Star Is Born, the sense of huge live venue was totally palpable. It was incredibly effective and emotionally moving
You are putting the cart before the horse. First off the answer to your questions is to listen to the Blades in your unbuilt room. Until you do that you can't make any decisions. Putting any speaker in your room will alter the sound radically from the dealer showroom. For right now, the Blades seem to be the top contender. If they sound well in your room, decision is made, buy them! Listening to speakers in your current room is not a way to decide on speakers. I would focus on getting that room built pronto! Any ideas that you will get from people on this website will not help you except to give you ideas of what to listen to in your new room. Other than that, it is just rich mans shopping. The idea that if I spend mega bucks on my speakers they will sound fantastic. In reality that is wrong just about every single time. When your room is ready to go, we can offer fantastic advice to help you. Until then hang out here and have fun!
 

Ilkless

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You are putting the cart before the horse. First off the answer to your questions is to listen to the Blades in your unbuilt room. Until you do that you can't make any decisions. Putting any speaker in your room will alter the sound radically from the dealer showroom. For right now, the Blades seem to be the top contender. If they sound well in your room, decision is made, buy them! Listening to speakers in your current room is not a way to decide on speakers. I would focus on getting that room built pronto! Any ideas that you will get from people on this website will not help you except to give you ideas of what to listen to in your new room. Other than that, it is just rich mans shopping. The idea that if I spend mega bucks on my speakers they will sound fantastic. In reality that is wrong just about every single time. When your room is ready to go, we can offer fantastic advice to help you. Until then hang out here and have fun!

He has the best hope of good sound in his room by choosing speakers that exhibit attributes that make them more room agnostic (i.e. verifiably smooth dispersion). The notion that the speaker-room interaction is so arbitrary that we cannot distill general empirical principles informed by psychoacoustics is a relic of the subjective audio press.
 

MKR

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He has the best hope of good sound in his room by choosing speakers that exhibit attributes that make them more room agnostic (i.e. verifiably smooth dispersion). The notion that the speaker-room interaction is so arbitrary that we cannot distill general empirical principles informed by psychoacoustics is a relic of the subjective audio press.
100% this ^
 
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chouca

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Keith

Two votes for Joseph Audio already! They certainly fit the bill cosmetically and I've seen so many rave reports from trade shows. The Pearls claim within "within 2dB from 25 Hz to 20 kHz", which sounds great. I'll add them to my short list and try to find a dealer for an audition.

What I wonder about is, given what seems to be a fairly conventional design, whether they can compete with these more innovative-seeming designs from KEF and Perlisten. My fiancée just bought me Floyd Toole's Sound Reproduction book so I can hopefully educate myself on this topic!
 
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chouca

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I've heard it said about people that when they show you who they are, you should believe them the first time. I think the same applies with speakers. You seem to have had a wholly positive and enthusiastic reaction to the Blade One Meta, after a long audition. Believe them the first time, and buy them!

They certainly are the front runner! I tend to be a "research thoroughly, enjoy forever" type of purchaser, so I want to leave no stone unturned.
 

subframe

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What I wonder about is, given what seems to be a fairly conventional design, whether they can compete with these more innovative-seeming designs from KEF and Perlisten. My fiancée just bought me Floyd Toole's Sound Reproduction book so I can hopefully educate myself on this topic!
I wondered the same thing. It’s not clear to me exactly how Jeff Joseph has achieved his results with a fairly conventional design, but both measurements and listening show that he has. The cabinets are designed to reduce diffraction, and there appears to be a shallow waveguide for the tweeter, but I don’t think that is the sole explanation for the speakers’ performance.
 
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chouca

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@chouca Happy to make some recommends but to avoid wasting your time, what’s your budget?

I don't really have an upper limit, although above a certain price ($100K? I really don't know) I start to wonder if there can possibly be a sonic benefit. So if, for my taste, Sonus Faber sets the upper bounds on what beautiful cabinetry and luxurious materials cost, and (currently) the KEF Blade sets the upper bound on what great sonics cost, that gives me a pretty good model for what things "should" cost in this already admittedly crazy rarified space of high end audio.

But it's still a soft limit, because hearing something that sounds as good or better than the Blade (and measures commensurately well so that I know I'm not fooling myself) and looks as good as Sonus Faber could bump the budget up.
 
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chouca

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...

Perlisten's acoustic configuration is intrinsically significantly narrower-dispersing vertically, which would be perceived as a collapse in treble air and soundstage the further the listening height gets away from the tweeter, versus KEF. But it could also lead to a perceptually cleaner sound in-room as the room reflections are of a lower degree at least on the vertical axis.

Speaking very generally, well-engineered, smoothly-dispersing speakers of narrower dispersion tend to evoke a sense that "you are there" in the acoustic space of the recording, while similarly well-engineered speakers of broader dispersion tend to evoke a sense that "they (the performers) are here" in the listening room. Both are pleasurable auditory illusions, but it is personal preference which you lean towards.

Very, very helpful reply, thank you!

I wonder why that SOTA Loudspeakers thread didn't show up in my search results? I'm guessing it's the hyphens in the thread title.
 
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