State of the Art passive full-range speakers?

[steve59]

There is not one state of the art speaker it all depends on the category in which you want to get state of the art, like tonality, soundstage, envelopment, dynamics, deep bass and so on.

From my experience such "standard hifi" speakers like the kef blade lack dynamics and punch. Even inexpensive PA speakers are most of the time better in this regard.

If you want to get an overall very good speaker with dynamics which is considered to be overall better than the KEF Blade it gets fast very expensive.

Big horn speakers like the Acapella Hyperion or Acapella Sphäron are two or three classes above the KEF Blade and in in therms of dynamics lightyears ahead.

If you are able to compare such speakers side by side it becomes obvious that most people will like such a dynamic speaker overall much better than standard hifi speakers even if in some categories they are most of the time worse.

I went from A Hegel H360 to a H590 and for the last couple years a Mac Mc611. The lack of sensitivity is offset with more power as the move from the h590 to the mc611's made an easily notable difference in dynamic swing.

 

[traind]

There is not one state of the art speaker it all depends on the category in which you want to get state of the art, like tonality, soundstage, envelopment, dynamics, deep bass and so on.

From my experience such "standard hifi" speakers like the kef blade lack dynamics and punch. Even inexpensive PA speakers are most of the time better in this regard.

If you want to get an overall very good speaker with dynamics which is considered to be overall better than the KEF Blade it gets fast very expensive.

Big horn speakers like the Acapella Hyperion or Acapella Sphäron are two or three classes above the KEF Blade and in in therms of dynamics lightyears ahead.

If you are able to compare such speakers side by side it becomes obvious that most people will like such a dynamic speaker overall much better than standard hifi speakers even if in some categories they are most of the time worse.

What does "lightyears ahead in term of dynamics" mean?

I have heard the Blade One Metas twice now and the Two Metas once, all in different rooms. With enough juice, it's hard to believe dynamics would be lightyears behind anything if you are listening in a typical room in a home setting. So it makes me think I don't understand how you define 1) dynamics and 2) lightyears ahead.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

What does "lightyears ahead in term of dynamics" mean?

I have heard the Blade One Metas twice now and the Two Metas once, all in different rooms. With enough juice, it's hard to believe dynamics would be lightyears behind anything if you are listening in a typical room in a home setting. So it makes me think I don't understand how you define 1) dynamics and 2) lightyears ahead.

Agreed. I've heard a pair of Blade One Metas in the theater room at the KEF US headquarters in NJ and they lacked nothing in dynamics with a wide variety of music. The three Blade 2 Metas in my much, much smaller roon easily encompass anything I can tolerate.

This is not to say that there are others that on paper or test rig cannot exceed them but their value in so doing is moot.

 

[test1223]

I went from A Hegel H360 to a H590 and for the last couple years a Mac Mc611. The lack of sensitivity is offset with more power as the move from the h590 to the mc611's made an easily notable difference in dynamic swing.

There are some amplifiers which have higher or lower impulse distortions and compression which can make a speaker sound more or less dynamic. Never the less there is a big difference between different speakers where the standard HiFi speaker is in general not very dynamic.

What does "lightyears ahead in term of dynamics" mean?

I have heard the Blade One Metas twice now and the Two Metas once, all in different rooms. With enough juice, it's hard to believe dynamics would be lightyears behind anything if you are listening in a typical room in a home setting. So it makes me think I don't understand how you define 1) dynamics and 2) lightyears ahead.

Of cause listening distance and room size and treatment play an important roll if the compression and distortion capabilities of the speaker is enough. "Sadly" a bigger more treated room sounds better but you need speakers with much more power.

Besides that, only big speakers can play back the dynamic of real instruments without compression. Most hifi speakers simply can't do this. With dynamic recordings you instantly notice the difference of a speaker which can play back these dynamics and speakers which don't.

Some classical and jazz recordings provide very high dynamics like Charly Antolini - Knock Out, Verdi - Nabucco the Telarc recoding or plenty other recordings. These recordings sound fantastic with high dynamic speakers but you need a lot of power.

One example: If you had a look at the physical limitations of the high frequency driver of the KEF Blade or similar speakers: the area is simply to low to get high undistorted spl. There are plenty distortion mechanisms which can't be avoided like doppler distortion or air compression even if you assume you got a flawless driver with this area and frequency bandwidth it is impossible to deliver undistorted sound.

In contrast good high power speakers don't sound loud even if the sound pressure level is very high, since there is much less distortion at higher levels.


Most of the time big PA or big horn HiFi system sound more dynamic even at lower listening levels. Try some side by side comparison and you instantly notice.

One mechanism is that bigger speakers can have a uniform narrow directivity which small speakers can't deliver. There is a difference in perception of direct vs. reflected sound where direct sound feels more dynamic and punchy which is especially beneficial in bass frequencies with no downsides besides the very big boxes and high costs.

All in all the KEF blades can't subjectively and objectivly deliver the performance in terms of dynamics in comparison to these much bigger speakers.

 

[Purité Audio]

Choose a loudspeaker suitable for its application, I have owned large horns the ‘heightened’ dynamics is just a myth, more coloured, absolutely.
Keith

 

[Overseas]

I do not understand your technicalities but I listen to Piega 3 Classic, that sound like some floorstanders.

 

[test1223]

Choose a loudspeaker suitable for its application, I have owned large horns the ‘heightened’ dynamics is just a myth, more coloured, absolutely.
Keith

You repeated this statement without giving any technical hints or tell the names of the speakers which you didn't like. So what should I do with your opinion, which contradicts many technical and subjective observations?

 

[Purité Audio]

I have heard many horns I made a point to travel to hear them, when I first started PA I represented Cessaro a ‘high end’ German manufacturer who used expensive drivers, TAD but really didn’t have much idea about loudspeaker design.
We had some of their four way Liszt horns which were destroyed by Genelecs first digital speakers 8260, two subs and the then new GLM software.
Keith

 

[test1223]

I have heard many horns I made a point to travel to hear them, when I first started PA I represented Cessaro a ‘high end’ German manufacturer who used expensive drivers, TAD but really didn’t have much idea about loudspeaker design.
We had some of their four way Liszt horns which were destroyed by Genelecs first digital speakers 8260, two subs and the then new GLM software.
Keith

If I understand it right the tonality was messed up with the Cessaro speakers? E.g. have you never encountered the limits of a dome tweeter when listening to high dynamic recordings? From my experience you even don't have to try hard to encouter this, therfore all the big names like genelec, jbl and so on have some other drivers as tweeters for their bigger systems.

 

[Purité Audio]

I have encountered speakers pushed beyond their specific application, but that is hardly the speakers fault, if you need to play louder or sit further away then buy a suitable design.
Keith

 

[traind]

There are some amplifiers which have higher or lower impulse distortions and compression which can make a speaker sound more or less dynamic. Never the less there is a big difference between different speakers where the standard HiFi speaker is in general not very dynamic.



Of cause listening distance and room size and treatment play an important roll if the compression and distortion capabilities of the speaker is enough. "Sadly" a bigger more treated room sounds better but you need speakers with much more power.

Besides that, only big speakers can play back the dynamic of real instruments without compression. Most hifi speakers simply can't do this. With dynamic recordings you instantly notice the difference of a speaker which can play back these dynamics and speakers which don't.

Some classical and jazz recordings provide very high dynamics like Charly Antolini - Knock Out, Verdi - Nabucco the Telarc recoding or plenty other recordings. These recordings sound fantastic with high dynamic speakers but you need a lot of power.

One example: If you had a look at the physical limitations of the high frequency driver of the KEF Blade or similar speakers: the area is simply to low to get high undistorted spl. There are plenty distortion mechanisms which can't be avoided like doppler distortion or air compression even if you assume you got a flawless driver with this area and frequency bandwidth it is impossible to deliver undistorted sound.

In contrast good high power speakers don't sound loud even if the sound pressure level is very high, since there is much less distortion at higher levels.


Most of the time big PA or big horn HiFi system sound more dynamic even at lower listening levels. Try some side by side comparison and you instantly notice.

One mechanism is that bigger speakers can have a uniform narrow directivity which small speakers can't deliver. There is a difference in perception of direct vs. reflected sound where direct sound feels more dynamic and punchy which is especially beneficial in bass frequencies with no downsides besides the very big boxes and high costs.

All in all the KEF blades can't subjectively and objectivly deliver the performance in terms of dynamics in comparison to these much bigger speakers.

Thank you for the detailed reply.

I am not an expert, just a learner. When I look at Blade meta measurements I do not see a problem with distortion or compression at spl levels used by, I am guessing, 98% of listeners. I may be interpreting things incorrectly though.

But of course there must be some people who demand near ear damaging volume and also have an enormous house to do it in. I think that use case, enormous room and very high volume listener, is even smaller than 2%, probably much smaller than 1%. In my town, which has quite expensive real estate, the people who have houses that big have enough money to buy literally any audio system they can dream of. I doubt any of them are looking for that spl though. Except maybe the guy who has had both Elton John and Billy Joel play at birthday parties at his home. They were playing outside though, lol.

You said "Besides that, only big speakers can play back the dynamic of real instruments without compression". That can't be true unless you are talking about sky high volumes, can it? Anyone else want to weigh in on that specific quote to educate me?

 

[xanalog]

...I have owned large horns the ‘heightened’ dynamics is just a myth, more coloured, absolutely.
Keith

Have you considered this suggestion:

Luckily they also have cheap spray for 80 bucks, you [Keith] will "truly see and hear what is on your digital media".

Would such spray-paint change/reduce their mythical colour?

 

[test1223]

But of course there must be some people who demand near ear damaging volume and also have an enormous house to do it in. I think that use case, enormous room and very high volume listener, is even smaller than 2%, probably much smaller than 1%. In

You said "Besides that, only big speakers can play back the dynamic of real instruments without compression". That can't be true unless you are talking about sky high volumes, can it? Anyone else want to weigh in on that specific quote to educate

The maximum sound pressure peak of different real instruments and sounds it way higher than most people think.

For example the max peak spl of a not so loud instrument like an acoustic guitar is about 95 to 105dB. It occurs only a very short time when a string is picked with more power or when there is a clap.

If you have a look at louder instruments you easily reach real peaks of 120dB and higher.

For the impression of loudness and for ear damaging the duration of loud sounds is one very important factor.
So some kind of average calculation is involved in most spl values you find which description the sound pressure levels of instruments. Then you got a rms spl of a guitar of about 80dB for example.

Most recordings use some kind of compression to lower the real spl peaks of instrument sounds since these recording aren't intended to be played back with a live like sound pressure and as I mentioned most speakers can't handle these sound pressure levels.

If you take the sensitivity of a typial hifi loudspeaker like the kef blade you got something between 85 and 87dB if you want to get a clean 100dB peak at 3m listening distance you need about 500W power from the amplifier. Which is about the equivalent of 110dB at 1m distance. Most HiFi speakers can't even handle lower peaks well. And all kinds of distortions sets in, which you can easily hear, especially in comparison with bigger speakers. So even a single uncompressed guitar which is a rather quiet instrument can barely be handelt if at all.

The sound get unclean and unpleasant very fast due to the higher distortion. Many people think it is simply to loud for them but that isn't the case most of the time, since a real guitar sounds nice and clean and not so loud for them.

Low dynamic pop music isn't a problem most of the time for hifi speakers since all peaks are compressed and hifi loudspeakers can play loud enough most of the time.
But the lack of the peaks will deliver a poor fidelity.

Luckily there are also plenty recordings which provide high dynamic and sound quality which sound fantastic at higher levels.

 

[traind]

Thanks for the detail.

My wife plays guitar, it's hard to believe an acoustic peaks at anywhere near 105db (although you gave a range of 95-105). A quick search with AI says they peak at 92db if it is a steel string guitar, in the 80s for nylon string.

When we go to an orchestra, even sitting in one of the first few rows, the sound never seems super loud. It's a very large room of course but 15 feet from the violin section doesn't overwhelm at all, even in a fairly powerful symphony. Of course the horns etc are further back. So I looked at that and came up with a few things:

"A symphony orchestra's decibel level can range significantly, typically from 70 dB in quieter passages to 95 dB during louder sections. However, peak levels can reach 110 dB or even higher, particularly during climactic moments or when certain brass and percussion instruments are playing at full volume. Some individual instruments, especially in close proximity, can register levels as high as 140 dB.

Orchestra decibel level - The Classical Music Guide Forums

Orchestral musicians to be protected from decibels

Orchestral musicians are to be trained to protect their ears from the noise of their own instruments and those of other players.

www.theguardian.com

I think this is a fair statement:

Listening to a loud symphony as a spectator at a normal distance you will not hear the crazy up to 140db peaks from certain brass instruments. The player will though. The audience will hear the loudest symphonies at perhaps a peak of 95-115db depending upon seat location. I think that means a speaker like the Blade and many others can reproduce the vast majority of acoustic music without significant distortion at a sound level you would actually be listening at in a live performance. Unless you happen to be literally sitting in the brass section during one of the loudest symphonies. What am I missing?

 

[test1223]

Thanks for the detail.

My wife plays guitar, it's hard to believe an acoustic peaks at anywhere near 105db (although you gave a range of 95-105). A quick search with AI says they peak at 92db if it is a steel string guitar, in the 80s for nylon string.

When we go to an orchestra, even sitting in one of the first few rows, the sound never seems super loud. It's a very large room of course but 15 feet from the violin section doesn't overwhelm at all, even in a fairly powerful symphony. Of course the horns etc are further back. So I looked at that and came up with a few things:

"A symphony orchestra's decibel level can range significantly, typically from 70 dB in quieter passages to 95 dB during louder sections. However, peak levels can reach 110 dB or even higher, particularly during climactic moments or when certain brass and percussion instruments are playing at full volume. Some individual instruments, especially in close proximity, can register levels as high as 140 dB.

Orchestra decibel level - The Classical Music Guide Forums

Orchestral musicians to be protected from decibels

Orchestral musicians are to be trained to protect their ears from the noise of their own instruments and those of other players.

www.theguardian.com

I think this is a fair statement:

Listening to a loud symphony as a spectator at a normal distance you will not hear the crazy up to 140db peaks from certain brass instruments. The player will though. The audience will hear the loudest symphonies at perhaps a peak of 95-115db depending upon seat location. I think that means a speaker like the Blade and many others can reproduce the vast majority of acoustic music without significant distortion at a sound level you would actually be listening at in a live performance. Unless you happen to be literally sitting in the brass section during one of the loudest symphonies. What am I missing?

First the sound pressure of a spherical wave is reduced by 1/r^2 so at 3 m distance the sound pressure is about 10dB attenuated compared with 1m distance.
So you need 110dB at 1m for 100dB at 3 meter distance. Which shows that the listening distance is very important to determine if your speakers can handel dynamics or not.

If you take 100dB spl at your listening distance and 3 meter distance as a goal. Even that lower peak level of 100dB at 3m is to high for almost all standard hifi speakers. The distortion is simply to high to listening comfortably to music with these kind of speakers.

You also have to be aware of different definitions of peak spl. There is the absolute peak which occurs in a waveform, then there are plenty different peaks of a short term or longer term averages which also can be weighted depending on the frequency content like dB A or dB C. In these articles most of the time all these definitions are mixed up. If you have a look at the real peak of a spl waveform you easily get really high values e.g. a kids xylophone "scores" over 95dB real peak spl if you play loud, while the weighted short term average is about 70dB A or lower.

Loudspeakers have to deal with the real signal so they have to deal with the real waveform peak, which is significantly higher compared with other peak measures.

 

[traind]

The crux of my point is that listening to live acoustic music is not really done at the volumes you are talking about because of the very reason you cite... distance from the instruments.

You are saying speakers can't reproduce instrument dynamics but that is only if you are talking about when listening right next to the instrument. And only some instruments get that loud, not all.

You don't need >105db to replicate the experience of listening to live acoustic music because the audience almost never hears that volume to begin with. The majority of the audience is at a distance and is actually hearing the music at far less than 100db. So if a speaker can replicate those dynamics, it is replicating what we actually hear when listening to a symphony, jazz, choir or folk band... if there is no amplification.

Does that make sense?

 

[test1223]

The crux of my point is that listening to live acoustic music is not really done at the volumes you are talking about because of the very reason you cite... distance from the instruments.

You are saying speakers can't reproduce instrument dynamics but that is only if you are talking about when listening right next to the instrument. And only some instruments get that loud, not all.

You don't need >105db to replicate the experience of listening to live acoustic music because the audience almost never hears that volume to begin with. The majority of the audience is at a distance and is actually hearing the music at far less than 100db. So if a speaker can replicate those dynamics, it is replicating what we actually hear when listening to a symphony, jazz, choir or folk band... if there is no amplification.

Does that make sense?

The real peak spl at the best listening position of almost any acoustic concert is way higher than you estimate it is.

There are either very short distances or the room acoustic is build to utilize reflections to "amplify" the sound. Even the environmental noise of a bar has peaks over 95dB spl. A proper applause hits easily 120dB peaks. Everything has loud peaks.

You also overestimate the ability of hifi speakers to produce loud impulses.

If you don't believe me, try to record any live acoustic event. Or try to play back some of the very dynamic recordings at a live like level.

Hifi speakers are more or less small toys, when it comes to play back real instruments uncompressed. They can't do it.

 

[traind]

I am not estimating numbers at all, I am reading articles on the Internet where orchestras have been measured. They may be incorrect or you may be overestimating some, I don't know the answer. Clearly there is some decent overlap from what you are saying and what I have posted from various sources but the sources are generally lower than your description.

My personal experience listening to orchestras in two different venues has never included a performance where the sound seemed very loud. Unlike rock concerts where that can very easily be the case.