State-of-the-Art Loudspeakers

[FrantzM]

I was tempted to build the Geddes and Linkwitz designs, but, realizing how difficult, time-consuming, and (crucially for me in Manhattan) space-consuming either of those construction processes would be, I threw in the towel and decided to buy the D&D 8Cs. No regrets.

I might go Linwitz still, Decision is not entirely made yet but .... I like Geddes philosophy and the Science -based approach he used. He's unfortunately out of the speaker-building business ...

The 8C + Subs remains asomething I would love to audition .. Still... SO many choices these dyas for SOTA speakers.

@Shadrach.

There is a person on this site who's built a speaker based on the Dutch and Dutch 8C. PM him to know what it entails to build such a speaker.

 

[Sal1950]

Not easy at all. Woodworking is not for the faint of heart

That's a fact. I can machine a cylinder bore to +/- .0002 straight and round. But have struggled to hold any reasonable accuracy when attempting projects in wood.. I just never wanted to bend to my needs.

 

[andreasmaaan]

That's a fact. I can machine a cylinder bore to +/- .0002 straight and round. But have struggled to hold any reasonable accuracy when attempting projects in wood.. I just never wanted to bend to my needs.

I bow down to DIYers who can cut wood at home with sufficient precision for speaker boxes. I’ve never managed a decent box without laser-cutting.

 

[Shadrach]

I might go Linwitz still, Decision is not entirely made yet but .... I like Geddes philosophy and the Science -based approach he used. He's unfortunately out of the speaker-building business ...

The 8C + Subs remains asomething I would love to audition .. Still... SO many choices these dyas for SOTA speakers.

@Shadrach.

There is a person on this site who's built a speaker based on the Dutch and Dutch 8C. PM him to know what it entails to build such a speaker.

I've built quite a few over the years, for myself and for others. I know how much time they take.
I've also built a number of amps, lots of cables 4 music servers, speaker stands and the house my current lash up resides in.
It's a hobby I've been interested in since my teens and I'm now sixty four.
There is a very faint possibility I may just have some idea of what I'm talking about.
Btw, my current speakers are self built. They don't look very cool I must admit. However, they have about 3K's worth of components in them, so with the normal mark up of say x10 I suppose they are quite expensive units.

 

[FrantzM]

I've built quite a few over the years, for myself and for others. I know how much time they take.
I've also built a number of amps, lots of cables 4 music servers, speaker stands and the house my current lash up resides in.
It's a hobby I've been interested in since my teens and I'm now sixty four.
There is a very faint possibility I may just have some idea of what I'm talking about.
Btw, my current speakers are self built. They don't look very cool I must admit. However, they have about 3K's worth of components in them, so with the normal mark up of say x10 I suppose they are quite expensive units.

So you know how much it really cost to DIY. The point other and I have tried to make is that the real cost of DIY is often ignored or at least hidden.


The X10 is a nice number but in the real world, it depends ...could be more , much more... or ...

Back in the days I used to go to Lyrics Audio in NYC, on a regular basis, I'll come up from College after classes ..Mike Kay (RIP) would have me sit down and listen to components that I couldn't afford then. I did see plenty of audiophiles , some of those well heeled would come, audition for hours and just leave with not a purchase made .. His store was (is?) in one of the most expensive place in NYC (Real Estates in NYC has to be among the top 5 most expensive place in the World), Lexington Avenue, with monthly lease the size of a grandiose yearly salary and electricity and staff and insurance and ... So I am not sure he could sell these toys at cost ... whatever they were ... For the record I did not buy much from Lyric, could not afford then any of these but he was a friend and in some ways a mentor.

You seem to agree with us .... perhaps in the heat of discussions ...

 

[Shadrach]

So you know how much it really cost to DIY. The point other and I have tried to make is that the real cost of DIY is often ignored or at least hidden.


The X10 is a nice number but in the real world, it depends ...could be more , much more... or ...

Back in the days I used to go to Lyrics Audio in NYC, on a regular basis, I'll come up from College after classes ..Mike Kay (RIP) would have me sit down and listen to components that I couldn't afford then. I did see plenty of audiophiles , some of those well heeled would come, audition for hours and just leave with not a purchase made .. His store was (is?) in one of the most expensive place in NYC (Real Estates in NYC has to be among the top 5 most expensive place in the World), Lexington Avenue, with monthly lease the size of a grandiose yearly salary and electricity and staff and insurance and ... So I am not sure he could sell these toys at cost ... whatever they were ... For the record I did not buy much from Lyric, could not afford then any of these but he was a friend and in some ways a mentor.

You seem to agree with us .... perhaps in the heat of discussions ...

Yeah, I get a bit hot under the collar when it comes to hi end audio having heard some of the offerings and then seen the very occasional unit measured.
On my own speakers I wouldn't like to even hazard a guess at how may hours I've put in to them; it's a lot and each time I've moved, I've adjusted them again not being a fan of digital room correction.
I'm a hobbyist at heart with sever objective tendencies. I discount the hours of work I suppose because I enjoy it.

 

[FrantzM]

Yeah, I get a bit hot under the collar when it comes to hi end audio having heard some of the offerings and then seen the very occasional unit measured.
On my own speakers I wouldn't like to even hazard a guess at how may hours I've put in to them; it's a lot and each time I've moved, I've adjusted them again not being a fan of digital room correction.
I'm a hobbyist at heart with sever objective tendencies. I discount the hours of work I suppose because I enjoy it.

Believe me I am with you... I was at one point, on a Quixotic mission to challenge the insanity of High End pricing through posting on Internet fora... Used to be a hardcore subjectivist in spite of my engineer background ... Now a liberated and happy objectivis,t enjoying music through Spotify and Tidal and regular laptop... I sincerely thought DIY wasn't so difficult until I tried to build something . in that case a subwoofer that came as a kit in a flatpack ... I will likely build a Linkwitz design but that will be as far I will go ...

 

[Shadrach]

Believe me I am with you... I was at one point, on a Quixotic mission to challenge the insanity of High End pricing through posting on Internet fora... Used to be a hardcore subjectivist in spite of my engineer background ... Now a liberated and happy objectivis,t enjoying music through Spotify and Tidal and regular laptop... I sincerely thought DIY wasn't so difficult until I tried to build something . in that case a subwoofer that came as a kit in a flatpack ... I will likely build a Linkwitz design but that will be as far I will go ...

Very interesting design. I haven't heard a pair but I have heard some other DIY Open Baffle speakers and thought they sounded rather good.

 

[andreasmaaan]

I think the mark-up is generally a lot lower than 10 times the retail value of the parts in most cases. Parts are cheaper for large manufacturers and industrial processes reduce labour costs. If you look at value-leaders in the market (e.g. JBL LSR30x), it would be hard to buy equivalent DIY parts for as little as the speakers retail for - and that doesn’t even count the labour.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Back in the days I used to go to Lyrics Audio in NYC, on a regular basis, I'll come up from College after classes ..Mike Kay (RIP) would have me sit down and listen to components that I couldn't afford then. I did see plenty of audiophiles , some of those well heeled would come, audition for hours and just leave with not a purchase made .. His store was (is?) in one of the most expensive place in NYC (Real Estates in NYC has to be among the top 5 most expensive place in the World), Lexington Avenue, with monthly lease the size of a grandiose yearly salary and electricity and staff and insurance and ... So I am not sure he could sell these toys at cost ... whatever they were ... For the record I did not buy much from Lyric, could not afford then any of these but he was a friend and in some ways a mentor.

They are still in business, just around the corner from me.

 

[Cosmik]

Just buy precision machine-made old speakers on eBay for $20 and re-use the cabinets....

 

[pos]

Using R for 32 ohm impedance of the compression driver:

This compression driver is a 20 ohm load in the range of interest. With this load the passive network gives a textbook 9dB pad and 1kHz 1st order filter.

 

[MerlinGS]

This thread has drifted in a number of different directions, but I just wanted to make a couple of points. The suggestion was made that the Revel's could not be considered SOTA because they were passive, and that Harman was being driven by marketing. One poster correctly pointed out that Harman did produce highly regarded speakers through JBL, that not only were active, and used digital x-overs, but he should have mentioned Harman's top end processors have access to the anechoic response of the M2 and can apply RC based on the recorded data (this is also true for some Crown amps). Further, data for the Revel speakers are also available and RC can also be performed using said data. I would not be surprised that the speaker comparisons referenced by one poster (between the Kii and the Revel) did not include RC for the Revel, but did include it for the Kii. If my assumption is correct, then any comparison was potentially invalid not only because it was sighted, but also because one design was given an opportunity to better digitally adapt to the room while the other was not. However, I should note that JBL Synthesis SDP75 processor is fairly expensive, I don't know what other good sounding Harman processors would be able to serve as a specialized RC DSP for the Revels (I'm guessing some of the BSS units may qualify, Amir would have better insight into this).

Lastly, SOTA or not, passive speakers far outsell actives in the consumer market, so companies such as Revel that serve the consumer market must provide the products with passive x-overs is they are to maximize the financial benefits of their extensive research into speaker design.

Regarding reliability, I had a pair of active speakers made in Europe (from the 80s) with all electronics being internal, and had to through them to the garbage because nobody could repair the electronics once damaged (the same happened with a couple of subs, kept the drivers tossed the rest). I have various active designed speakers, and they all have external digital x-overs and amps. Best of both worlds.

 

[Sancus]

Lastly, SOTA or not, passive speakers far outsell actives in the consumer market

I assume you're referring only to $5K+ price point, because I can guarantee that >90% of speakers sold under $1000 are active. Like all computer speakers, bluetooth speakers, sound bars, bose anything, etc.

The high end of the market is slower to move because of the demographic that buys it, but even then, most larger home theatre manufacturers have active lines(Klipsch, Kef, Paradigm, Dynaudio, Elac, etc...). And a huge subsection of newer younger buyers are going with studio monitors over traditional hi-fi brands, which are also all active.

The preference for passive is already long dead in the general consumer market(the average person does not even own a receiver or amplifier to power them), and it's rapidly shrinking even among enthusiasts.

 

[Deleted member 2944]

I assume you're referring only to $5K+ price point, because I can guarantee that >90% of speakers sold under $1000 are active. Like all computer speakers, bluetooth speakers, sound bars, bose anything, etc.
.

I rather think MerlinGS was excluding that larger context with his comment. But your $1000/90% comment seems believable to me.

One wonders how loooooooooooong it will take the "high-end" audiophile community to abandon this ancient paradigm regarding speaker design and powering scheme. I thought twenty years ago we were close to achieving some sort of break over point on this, but I was sorely mistaken.

Dave.

 

[Sancus]

One wonders how loooooooooooong it will take the "high-end" audiophile community to abandon this ancient paradigm regarding speaker design and powering scheme.

I think if I was a responsible high-end manufacturer I would already be worried, and I suspect this is why the bigger ones have started producing active consumer speakers and sound bars like Klipsch, JBL and Definitive. The 20 and 30-somethings currently buying bluetooth speakers and studio monitors aren't going to switch to passive audiophile brands as they age and earn more, they're going to buy more expensive actives from the brands they're familiar with.

As for Revel specifically, it's hard to say why they haven't done any actives without asking someone in charge, but it could just be that Harman considers Revel a fully old school audiophile enthusiast targeted brand, and they would rather develop active speakers for that consumer base under their other brands like JBL. It doesn't make much sense to me to consider Revel without the context of the greater Harman business.

 

[Sal1950]

One wonders how loooooooooooong it will take the "high-end" audiophile community to abandon this ancient paradigm regarding

Turntables and vinyl?

 

[rebbiputzmaker]

So you know how much it really cost to DIY. The point other and I have tried to make is that the real cost of DIY is often ignored or at least hidden.


The X10 is a nice number but in the real world, it depends ...could be more , much more... or ...

Back in the days I used to go to Lyrics Audio in NYC, on a regular basis, I'll come up from College after classes ..Mike Kay (RIP) would have me sit down and listen to components that I couldn't afford then. I did see plenty of audiophiles , some of those well heeled would come, audition for hours and just leave with not a purchase made .. His store was (is?) in one of the most expensive place in NYC (Real Estates in NYC has to be among the top 5 most expensive place in the World), Lexington Avenue, with monthly lease the size of a grandiose yearly salary and electricity and staff and insurance and ... So I am not sure he could sell these toys at cost ... whatever they were ... For the record I did not buy much from Lyric, could not afford then any of these but he was a friend and in some ways a mentor.

You seem to agree with us .... perhaps in the heat of discussions ...

Around what years where you hanging out in Lyric? I spent allot of time up there with Mike as a teenager, always talking audio, and listening to great stuff in the back room. He was a great guy!

 

[FrantzM]

Around what years where you hanging out in Lyric? I spent allot of time up there with Mike as a teenager, always talking audio, and listening to great stuff in the back room. He was a great guy!

Late 80's early 90's. Indeed he was. I was very saddened for learning late of his demise.

 

[rebbiputzmaker]

Late 80's early 90's. Indeed he was. I was very saddened for learning late of his demise.

I was hanging out up there in the early 70s like I said it was really a great time. Mike was a special guy always loved talking audio and showing audio. The back room had some really good stuff at the time, the big magnaplaners tri amped with all audio research D76as Sp3a pre. The Mark Levinson preamp just came out, the first Linn table. I remember it had an SME arm and Decca cartridge that was so finicky if you looked at it wrong it wouldn’t track. LOL Mike also had his custom carpentry guy making coffin TL sub woofers with Kef B139 drivers. He also had an early Ampzilla. A whole bunch of other great stuff and of course all the Popular reference LPs like British Darkside of the moon pressing etc. He also had the big Fulton J modular speakers. Spent a lot of time up there, and yes he will be missed.