The (by now) ancient Acoustat SPECTRA series did this. The 6600 was the ultimate version and a true full range electrostat, but very rare now. I owned the non-SPECTRA version (without vertical segmentation), Model 6, which was quite a loudspeaker but needed more listening room than I could give it.You only say this because you own them.
It's okay. I owned ESL 63s for over a decade. I get it.
I always wanted someone to use the the timed delay sections like Quad on a floor to ceiling model to create a quasi line source. I think that would be a better way to make a bigger Quad.
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State-of-the-Art Loudspeakers
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Shadrach
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I find it pretty incredible that these high end sudio companies can actually sell these products with 50K and above price tags.
When all the hype and glitz is done away with we're talking about a few drive units in a box. The basics of speaker design have been understood for many years now.
Anyway, the loudspeaker I've been most impressed with was a DIY design marketed by Wilmslow Audio.
https://www.wilmslowaudio.co.uk/prestige-1697-p.asp
I haven't heard their more recent transmission line speakers.
I have a friend who bought the basic kit, but built his own enclosure; the MDF enclosure is what lets the kit down.
The kit was initially built in a passive arrangement and the enclosure built with 25mm marine birch ply. The front baffle was built with 30mm marine birch ply. This of course added considerable expense to the build. He also made some minor alterations to the crossover the details of which I can't recall.
I thought at the time the finished build sounded far better to my ears than anything I had heard at any price. I should point out here I haven't listened to any 100K+ speakers and very few at above the 50K mark. The expensive speakers I have heard have mostly been at audio shows and frankly such shows tell me nothing about how such a speaker would sound in my own listening environment, which is really what you want to know.
The last time I met up with this person he had made some changes and gone active using the Hypex modules also from Wilmslow Audio.
https://www.wilmslowaudio.co.uk/hypex-fusion-fa253-2827-p.asp
I have often thought about doing the same with my speakers, hence the interest in this forum and the current crop of high performance dac/pre amps now available
Say for example you chose one of the three way modules at about $400 each and spent a further $2000 on a Benchmark HGC.
For under $7000 and quite a bit of work I think you would probably end up with a set of speakers that would give equal performance to those 5 and 10 times the price. Unfortunately, price is no indication of quality.
When all the hype and glitz is done away with we're talking about a few drive units in a box. The basics of speaker design have been understood for many years now.
Anyway, the loudspeaker I've been most impressed with was a DIY design marketed by Wilmslow Audio.
https://www.wilmslowaudio.co.uk/prestige-1697-p.asp
I haven't heard their more recent transmission line speakers.
I have a friend who bought the basic kit, but built his own enclosure; the MDF enclosure is what lets the kit down.
The kit was initially built in a passive arrangement and the enclosure built with 25mm marine birch ply. The front baffle was built with 30mm marine birch ply. This of course added considerable expense to the build. He also made some minor alterations to the crossover the details of which I can't recall.
I thought at the time the finished build sounded far better to my ears than anything I had heard at any price. I should point out here I haven't listened to any 100K+ speakers and very few at above the 50K mark. The expensive speakers I have heard have mostly been at audio shows and frankly such shows tell me nothing about how such a speaker would sound in my own listening environment, which is really what you want to know.
The last time I met up with this person he had made some changes and gone active using the Hypex modules also from Wilmslow Audio.
https://www.wilmslowaudio.co.uk/hypex-fusion-fa253-2827-p.asp
I have often thought about doing the same with my speakers, hence the interest in this forum and the current crop of high performance dac/pre amps now available
Say for example you chose one of the three way modules at about $400 each and spent a further $2000 on a Benchmark HGC.
For under $7000 and quite a bit of work I think you would probably end up with a set of speakers that would give equal performance to those 5 and 10 times the price. Unfortunately, price is no indication of quality.
I agree with you that the high end of speaker pricing is nuts. Maybe if you have a very large room a few of the monster sized units might justify a somewhat inflated price but for normal listening room ---------. But from honest companies like Harman you will find even their statement products like the Revel Salon 2s or the JBL M2's can be purchased for under $20k with downsized models available for significantly less. The current rave DSP actives like D&D and Kii are priced at $10k and that includes the savings of amps,etc.
These are still outside my financial wheelhouse but I can't afford a Lamborghini or a Kendigit built custom car either.
The good news is speaker design has gotten to a place where excellent sound can be purchased for little money. A pair of $500 stand mounts and 1 or 2 good subs can produce amazing results.
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Isn't the DAC a waste for DSP speakers with digital inputs?
While some prices out there are quite insane, comparing DIY with commercial projects isn't fair. Marketing, development, labor, investments distributors, retailers, etc. drive the cost up. Just looking at cost of the box and drivers gives a wrong impression. For marketing you can just take one example: Visiting a few large hifi shows each year costs considerably.
Shadrach
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It will act as a dac/pre amp and also give some flexibility and give headphone capability among other things.
Shadrach
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Sure, but I don't really want to pay for lavish marketing, dealer mark up and all the other things that are completely irrelevant to the speakers performance.
As much I despise the current pricing "schemes" in High End Audio, one must understand the nature of producing any goods. One (there are many
) of the elephants in the room is cost, another is competition. Marketing is a necessary evil and it adds to cost. Add to that R&D and stakes, and learning and acts of god and the global market and the internet ... These are not as you put it "completely irrelevant to speaker performance" ... They are indeed much relevant ... in DIY one doesn't tally or calculate the costs, if anything the acquisition costs are those most visible and often from the DIYselfer perspective the most important ... Time to build, Time to learn, electricity, logistics, DIYselfer own time/cost, her or his own R&D are not accounted for, never accounted for ... The end result can well be glorious. it often has unrealized or ignored costs that may rival in some instances that of equivalent full baked products.
Shadrach
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I'm sorry, I really don't understand your point with regard to my post.
None of the things I mentioned have anything to do with a loudspeakers performance. You've made assumptions about what you think I may have meant and not read the post properly.
I didn't for example mention R&D, place a value on my time, or my knowledge.
None of the things I mentioned have anything to do with a loudspeakers performance. You've made assumptions about what you think I may have meant and not read the post properly.
I didn't for example mention R&D, place a value on my time, or my knowledge.
Shadrach
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Having spent a number of years working in a R&D dept for an well known avionics company I can assure you that all companies use the research and often the products of other companies when designing and manufacturing their own.
Absolutely, but my point is that someone has invested into studies/researchers at a point. And without a market that wouldn't happen. And without adds, marketing, distributors, retailers , etc. you don't have a market either.
Obviously one who builds speakers for them self doesn't have to care about this but it's important to know what drives the progress which all benefit from.
Shadrach
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I wasn't expecting this to be quite such hard work but......
None of the above is strictly true is it (?)
Your post above implies that there is no market for any product unless that market is created by advertising/marketing etc.
There may be some merit in this argument for the luxury goods market but there are other markets that are consumer driven rather than marketing creations. Given the prevalence of audio entertainment now I would argue that only a very small section of this market now falls into the luxury goods category.
Some might argue that a good product sells itself. I believe Rolls Royce took this approach with their cars in the past..
With the spread of the internet the physical point of sale that required a salesperson is no longer necessary. There are on a number of forums, this one included salespersons trying to make forums such as this their point of sales and on other forums you can read salespersons lamenting the demise of the audio store, not because it has damaged audio, but because they no longer have a job.
Next there is the argument often used by car racing enthusiasts who will tell you that if it wasn't for formula racing the innovation in car technologies would grind to a halt. I assume this is the argument you are putting forward for hi end audio. Something this site proves with the likes of the JDS atom amp is excellence in design and product doesn't require thousands and thousands of dollars spent on marketing and advertising.
Hi end audio needs the marketing etc because without it they would be unlikely to sell their products. They cater to a particular market and personality type. In general they are not great innovators of leading design products.
Finally there seems to be a great misconception of how these products are designed. There seems to be a belief amoung some audiophiles that the producers of say loudspeakers spend months listening to their products and fine tuning them until they reach some arbitrary standard.
Much like a competent amplifier designer they will know near enough exactly how it will sound without even listening to it; the maths and measurements tell them alll they need to know. It is much the same with loudspeakers; a measured flat response is transparent and anything else isn't. The various crossover slopes are well known as are the various impedance characteristic of a particular drive unit; because it's been measured. With more sophisticated wave analysis software, predicting drive unit performance can all be done without even seeing the unit never mind listening to it.
So, as I wrote earlier, my preference is to build speakers myself. I pay for the research into the drive units because they are included in the cost of the unit itself. The smae applies to all the other materials involved. What I'm not paying for is some twat at a store telling me I must be deaf if I can't hear the difference between this and that and then trying to sell me some other piece of equipment that will improve my system. The stupidy of this approach is if I'm deaf then anything else he sells me is going to improve my hearing.
None of the above is strictly true is it (?)
Your post above implies that there is no market for any product unless that market is created by advertising/marketing etc.
There may be some merit in this argument for the luxury goods market but there are other markets that are consumer driven rather than marketing creations. Given the prevalence of audio entertainment now I would argue that only a very small section of this market now falls into the luxury goods category.
Some might argue that a good product sells itself. I believe Rolls Royce took this approach with their cars in the past..
With the spread of the internet the physical point of sale that required a salesperson is no longer necessary. There are on a number of forums, this one included salespersons trying to make forums such as this their point of sales and on other forums you can read salespersons lamenting the demise of the audio store, not because it has damaged audio, but because they no longer have a job.
Next there is the argument often used by car racing enthusiasts who will tell you that if it wasn't for formula racing the innovation in car technologies would grind to a halt. I assume this is the argument you are putting forward for hi end audio. Something this site proves with the likes of the JDS atom amp is excellence in design and product doesn't require thousands and thousands of dollars spent on marketing and advertising.
Hi end audio needs the marketing etc because without it they would be unlikely to sell their products. They cater to a particular market and personality type. In general they are not great innovators of leading design products.
Finally there seems to be a great misconception of how these products are designed. There seems to be a belief amoung some audiophiles that the producers of say loudspeakers spend months listening to their products and fine tuning them until they reach some arbitrary standard.
Much like a competent amplifier designer they will know near enough exactly how it will sound without even listening to it; the maths and measurements tell them alll they need to know. It is much the same with loudspeakers; a measured flat response is transparent and anything else isn't. The various crossover slopes are well known as are the various impedance characteristic of a particular drive unit; because it's been measured. With more sophisticated wave analysis software, predicting drive unit performance can all be done without even seeing the unit never mind listening to it.
So, as I wrote earlier, my preference is to build speakers myself. I pay for the research into the drive units because they are included in the cost of the unit itself. The smae applies to all the other materials involved. What I'm not paying for is some twat at a store telling me I must be deaf if I can't hear the difference between this and that and then trying to sell me some other piece of equipment that will improve my system. The stupidy of this approach is if I'm deaf then anything else he sells me is going to improve my hearing.
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Gentlemen, how about discussing SotA loudspeakers rather than SotA communications & marketing?
Understood. But the DIY market is limited to those who have willingness to dive into projects like this. As FrantzM ^ outlines above DYI has it's own demands in costs, both seen and unseen. Only a very small percentage of the HiFi market has a interest in DYI, so the rest belongs to the manufacturers. It's a caveat emptor market there as it is in anything else.
Very true. If nobody knows about your product you won't sell any, regardless of price. Marketing is essential as is R&D and design costs which are much, much more than simple bill-of-materials.As much I despise the current pricing "schemes" in High End Audio, one must understand the nature of producing any goods. One (there are many
I was told by one senior executive of a big car company that the cost of manufacture was about 10% of the retail price and they spent more money on marketing it than making it. Of course one of the reason the BOM cost is so low is the huge investment in engineering design and tooling to achieve it, which has to be paid for out of the list price - he did not tell me what proportion that was.
From someone who is just beginning to DIY ... Not easy at all. Woodworking is not for the faint of heart ... Basic assembly takes time ... Just put together a Parts Express Flat pack sub ... it looks downright abominable .. and it leaked .. and it buzzed .. Until I learned how to properly seal the joints ...
I will bring it to a person who knows how to veneer MDF. The veneering cost is likely to be that of the entire assembly ...
I will bring it to a person who knows how to veneer MDF. The veneering cost is likely to be that of the entire assembly ...
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There's definitely people with different needs/wants on this forum. I just scroll past discussion of "SotA" DIY, speakers or otherwise, because it's unrealistic for me. The time investment is enormous, especially if you don't have prior experience, and time is more valuable than money, that's for sure.
