State of the art Home Theatre - how?

[Soundmixer]

I didn’t even mention the work being done on stuff like dialog intelligibility, and allowing users choices in terms of what parts of a soundtrack they want or emphasized or deemphasized etc.

DTS:X already has the ability to isolate and control the volume of the dialog, they proposed that years. It hasn't been implemented in any product I know of though, but it has been a part of their DTS:X spec for years. I don't think it is wise to give the end-user the ability to alter the soundtrack in any way.

Speaker positioning agnostic systems. Beam forming. The equivalent of foveated rendering for 3D audio. Which could lower complexity based on hearing tests. Head tracking. Stuff I haven’t even heard of yet. Atmos laid a good foundation I would admit. Money spent on good LCRs is never a waste. Everything else is in flux.

We already have speaker positioning agnostics system via Trinnov. I never tried it because I never needed to. I don't think foveated rendering for 3D audio is really necessary. We haven't even taken Atmos or X as far as they can go yet.

I am still baffled as heck about this so-called "midbass" issue you keep talking about. Neither of my systems has issues with midbass - room correction took care of whatever existed before it was used.

 

[srrxr71]

SBIR/LBIR

 

[Soundmixer]

SBIR/LBIR

Are you making an assertion that no current room correction system can correct this? If so, I profoundly disagree. Once again, mountain out of a bump comment. Bass traps can take care of SBIR, and so can room correction. Non-issue as far as I am concerned.

 

[apgood]

DTS:X already has the ability to isolate and control the volume of the dialog, they proposed that years. It hasn't been implemented in any product I know of though, but it has been a part of their DTS:X spec for years. I don't think it is wise to give the end-user the ability to alter the soundtrack in any way.

The StormAudio ISP has the DTS Dialog volume controls but I believe something needs to be enabled in the soundtrack (not sure if the dialogue needs to be encoded as an object or something like that) for the dialogue volume controls to work.

 

[Soundmixer]

The StormAudio ISP has the DTS Dialog volume controls but I believe something needs to be enabled in the soundtrack (not sure if the dialogue needs to be encoded as an object or something like that) for the dialogue volume controls to work.

The dialog does need to be encoded as an object for dialog control to work.

 

[maverickronin]

I don't think it is wise to give the end-user the ability to alter the soundtrack in any way.

Seriously?

Independent control of the dialog is a fantastic idea. It's much better than common workarounds of just boosting the whole center channel or turning on subtitles/closed captions.

 

[Qbd]

SINAD to compare DACs is important to see what kind of engineering went into them and compare them. However if you think of a room with even 55dB ambient noise and let’s say a horrible SINAD of 80dB you still have output to 135db before the system’s poor SINAD becomes audible in that room.

Just a minor nitpick, but 55 dB would certainly not be SOTA for a home theater. I’d think at least <30 dBA, and maybe even <30 dBZ for a home theater to be considered SOTA.

 

[abdo123]

Are you making an assertion that no current room correction system can correct this? If so, I profoundly disagree. Once again, mountain out of a bump comment. Bass traps can take care of SBIR, and so can room correction. Non-issue as far as I am concerned.

Dude what?

LBIR and SBIR nulls are infinitely deep, it's a complete cancelation of the wave, the only thing room correction can do here is blow up your speakers.

Edit: Even if the null was 10dB down in amplitude (e.g. walls aren't infinitely rigid) you would need an amplifier with 10 times the wattage to maintain the same dynamic range.

 

[srrxr71]

Just a minor nitpick, but 55 dB would certainly not be SOTA for a home theater. I’d think at least <30 dBA, and maybe even <30 dBZ for a home theater to be considered SOTA.

I see. Wow. I dream of the day I get there. Maybe would need active HVAC noise cancelling in my case.

 

[mga2009]

Handling the volume control should be fairly straightforward. Most AVRs make use of an NJW1194 or similar, which leaves us with several possibilities.

The simplest and most universal solution is to loop the ADC of a microcontroller through one of the onboard NJW1194's channels and use those values to drive an external quadVol board. A less universal apprach would be to extend the onboard NJW's I2C lines to an identical external IC on the same address.

Both of these options would enable the AVR to retain functional volume control.

After reading the whole 5 pages in this thread, and hoping there would be guide or how-to for this... I am still waiting. Come on! Turning a standard AVR in a "el cheapo" AV processor with volume control would be awesome! You should start a thread for this. Feeding I2S lines to a cheap DSP and then output to a good DAC it would allow you to have an "ALL DIGITAL" setup, even with active crossover!

 

[JeffS7444]

After reading the whole 5 pages in this thread, and hoping there would be guide or how-to for this... I am still waiting. Come on! Turning a standard AVR in a "el cheapo" AV processor with volume control would be awesome! You should start a thread for this. Feeding I2S lines to a cheap DSP and then output to a good DAC it would allow you to have an "ALL DIGITAL" setup, even with active crossover!

Think someone already linked to Weeb Labs's video which is a semi howto showing a 2-channel digital output. You handle the other channels using additional converter boards.

 

[Ata]

I'm already pretty far along. I have a 4.1 using 4 LS 50s (fronts are Metas), an Sb2000, Octo 8, and an i7 running JRiver with Dirac Live 3. I just got the Octo last week, and finally got everything hooked up. It works. Still have to dial it in. I also have a two channel use case, and I'm using the Dephonica software crossover (which is freeware) for that. I also have it working. Obviously this is limited to a 7.1 system. Beyond that, the codec makers hold an iron fist on copyrights (ATMOS, DTS-X, Auro 3D) and will not license them for anything other than dedicated processor/receivers which are both uber expensive, and have mediocre performing dacs and amps.

JRiver and Octo are your very best friends in this endeavor. I will be publishing details in the days ahead. I am still dialing in the settings, and I have not yet created Dirac live filters for each of the use cases. Already it sounds awesome, though. Amplifier is the Purifi Eval 1. Will keep you posted.

BTW, something like the Motu Ultralite Mk 5 would probably work in place of the Octo, and be both cheaper and more available--but no remote, unfortunately.

The HP 12c avatar takes me back to my days in B-School.

Please do start a thread -- it is this or one of the upcoming Dirac Live enabled and price conscious receivers for me in the near future!

 

[tecnogadget]

Please do start a thread -- it is this or one of the upcoming Dirac Live enabled and price conscious receivers for me in the near future!

I’ve had enough waiting for a simple solution of AVR + Dirac with reasonable price and performance. DL Bass Control is a fiasco, it took them more than 2 years to make it happend and it still buggy (search for Dirac thread ar AVS forum).
And most AVR’s performance is also a fiasco. The only one that passes is the X3700H.
And it looks the new Onkyos and Pioneer with Dirac will be more expensive than originally thought. Mini DSP also missed the shot not updating nanoAVR series.

IM DONE waiting for the convenient/automatic solution.

Im going full SOTA processing with HTPC. Better DSP performance with unlimited FIR taps and Frequency Dependent Window. Better picture quality with madVR processing (IA upscalling, better HDR tonemapping, and more). At the end will be better than any high-end overpriced processor and better performance.

 

[mga2009]

Think someone already linked to Weeb Labs's video which is a semi howto showing a 2-channel digital output. You handle the other channels using additional converter boards.

Thanks! Already saw the video, but I was hoping to find a complete guide to enable volume control using the AVR's knob.

I’ve had enough waiting for a simple solution of AVR + Dirac with reasonable price and performance. DL Bass Control is a fiasco, it took them more than 2 years to make it happend and it still buggy (search for Dirac thread ar AVS forum).
And most AVR’s performance is also a fiasco. The only one that passes is the X3700H.
And it looks the new Onkyos and Pioneer with Dirac will be more expensive than originally thought. Mini DSP also missed the shot not updating nanoAVR series.

IM DONE waiting for the convenient/automatic solution.

Im going full SOTA processing with HTPC. Better DSP performance with unlimited FIR taps and Frequency Dependent Window. Better picture quality with madVR processing (IA upscalling, better HDR tonemapping, and more). At the end will be better than any high-end overpriced processor and better performance.

Sorry my ignorance, but what's the maning of "SOTA"?

I completely agree with you. An HTPC around USD$2000 (considering a high end DAC like MOTU or OKTO) will obliterate other audio and video processors (just check the price for a Lumagen 3DLutBox). My only concern with the HTPC way is that you need 100% source from your PC, so no gaming consoles, bluray, etc.

My "WIP" project consist of:

8 channel HKDIY USB multichannel XMOS with FIFO reclock > I2S > ADAU1442DSP with 16 outputs (thru 2xAD1938 CODEC in daisy chain) > 16 AMPS, so I can use active crossover in 7 channels.

Now, I can replace the HKDIY USB XMOS with a cheap AVR and follow Weeb Lab's video, which will give me HDMI input, some sort of auto room correction (probably worst than doing it manually in the HTPC), and well... ATMOS if you manage to connect and fit all the I2S lines.

 

[Tom C]

State of the art

 

[tecnogadget]

Thanks! Already saw the video, but I was hoping to find a complete guide to enable volume control using the AVR's knob.



Sorry my ignorance, but what's the maning of "SOTA"?

I completely agree with you. An HTPC around USD$2000 (considering a high end DAC like MOTU or OKTO) will obliterate other audio and video processors (just check the price for a Lumagen 3DLutBox). My only concern with the HTPC way is that you need 100% source from your PC, so no gaming consoles, bluray, etc.

I think you are over budgeting with $2K for HTPC. If you are planning also gaming then that’s ok. If video processing is not the goal (at least for madVR NGU upscalers) you can go with an Intel NUC8. In my case im going for a second hand HTPC with GTX 1070 for around 600€/700€.
You can play UHD Blu Ray with the adecuate hardware and software. JRiver, Intel processor compatible with SGX, compatible “friendly” UHD drive, and decryptor software like AnyDVD HD.

 

[mga2009]

I think you are over budgeting with $2K for HTPC. If you are planning also gaming then that’s ok. If video processing is not the goal (at least for madVR NGU upscalers) you can go with an Intel NUC8. In my case im going for a second hand HTPC with GTX 1070 for around 600€/700€.
You can play UHD Blu Ray with the adecuate hardware and software. JRiver, Intel processor compatible with SGX, compatible “friendly” UHD drive, and decryptor software like AnyDVD HD.

I meant including the multichannel DAC (around USD$1.000).- Y

 

[Ata]

I’ve had enough waiting for a simple solution of AVR + Dirac with reasonable price and performance. DL Bass Control is a fiasco, it took them more than 2 years to make it happend and it still buggy (search for Dirac thread ar AVS forum).
And most AVR’s performance is also a fiasco. The only one that passes is the X3700H.
And it looks the new Onkyos and Pioneer with Dirac will be more expensive than originally thought. Mini DSP also missed the shot not updating nanoAVR series.

IM DONE waiting for the convenient/automatic solution.

Im going full SOTA processing with HTPC. Better DSP performance with unlimited FIR taps and Frequency Dependent Window. Better picture quality with madVR processing (IA upscalling, better HDR tonemapping, and more). At the end will be better than any high-end overpriced processor and better performance.

I can relate to that. I built my first HTPC to play DVDs (Baraka was the killer one to watch) on a Loewe 32" 4:3 TV equipped with an overclockable VGA input, at a time when any decent DVD player with an inferior component output was above USD 1000, an unthinkable expense for me at the time. It was in the era of WinDVD vs PowerDVD, and the quest was to improve the banding in the opening scene of the original Matrix...

But, that was in 1998 and now it is 2021 (still). The video side of things is basically a solved problem, at least at the consumer level. 4K UHDs is widely available, even for the Hitchcock classics, I have a giant OLED screen with near perfect contrast ratio, colour gamut and upscaling for digital and analog inputs. Or maybe I am at a stage where pixel-peeping a paused frame is no longer a pastime and I just want to enjoy the content I am watching...

On the other hand, sound, especially multi-channel sound, is not a solved problem. Modern, highly rated AVRs come close, but as you say are typically full of compromises. It all starts with HDMI as interconnect which has audio issues (https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ds/a-deep-dive-into-hdmi-audio-performance.56). Multichannel USB inputs on AVRs are practically non-existent on mass produced units.

Decent room correction, a must for decent audio at any price range, is also problematic, with FIR based manual room correction methods as per Mitch's guides and even REW based DIY put to shame anything that exists even in high end AVRs. That is something worth pursuing further, HTPC would be an option but I think a device like AppleTV or an Android-based equivalent would be a more practical and user friendly option with great WAF, as they make for very capable and widely supported video and audio streamers with plenty of CPU and GPU grunt.

 

[Weeb Labs]

Thanks! Already saw the video, but I was hoping to find a complete guide to enable volume control using the AVR's knob.

If you have a look at the service manual for your AVR and find the analog audio block schematic, you will see a configuration that is quite similar to the one depicted below.

In order to make use of the AVR's onboard volume control in conjunction with your DSP, you will simply need to choose a pair of pins on the NJU (InC and OutC, for instance) and disconnect them from the DAC and amplifier. You can then connect the input to a 2V reference from your DSP (voltage divider on VDD) and the output to one of its auxiliary ADCs.

Within your Sigma Studio project, you will need to create a new volume control object and pass the auxiliary ADC's value to its control input.

Some AVRs will leave one or more volume control IC channels unused (such as channel D above), which may enable you to perform this modification while leaving all of the original signal path untouched. It is important to bear in mind that the NJU channels can be controlled individually, so there exists the possibility that all unused channels are simply muted. This may be worthwhile to test.

 

[Soundmixer]

Dude what?

LBIR and SBIR nulls are infinitely deep, it's a complete cancelation of the wave, the only thing room correction can do here is blow up your speakers.

Dude, you identify LBIR and SBIR first using measurements, move your speakers (or sub(s) either further or closer to the front wall, use absorption (or diffusion) for treatment for early reflections, and THEN use room correction.

Edit: Even if the null was 10dB down in amplitude (e.g. walls aren't infinitely rigid) you would need an amplifier with 10 times the wattage to maintain the same dynamic range.

You could move the sub into the null thereby driving it, or you could add another subwoofer (or four).

Dude, this is not an insurmountable issue!