State of the art Home Theatre - how?

[tifune]

Because there are no software decoder supporting more than 7.1 on PC.
No Atmos, no auro3d or DTS:X
You can use a DSP to spread 7.1 over more speakers.
If you want 16 outputs, you can take 2 boxes making 8 outputs and joining them as one virtual device of 16 outputs.
There are virtual drivers doing this, probably even asio4all.
Some professional boxes drivers do it.

This got me wondering, not even the offical plugins for sale in the Microsoft store? So if I had a physical blu-ray player bitstreaming Atmos to my 8500, and I hit the "info" button (tells you whats being received - channel count, video format etc), I'll see 16ch but the official paid plugins I'll only see 8?

 

[Vincentponcet]

I'd argue the opposite, actually. All those DACs with no EQ or room correction are useless, even relatively cheap AVRs include these baseline requirements for good sound. And they trick people into thinking SINAD of 95 vs 115 matters when it doesn't matter at all.

Having a Sinad of a 5$ dongle for a 4,000$ AVR is still very sad.

 

[Vincentponcet]

This got me wondering, not even the offical plugins for sale in the Microsoft store? So if I had a physical blu-ray player bitstreaming Atmos to my 8500, and I hit the "info" button (tells you whats being received - channel count, video format etc), I'll see 16ch but the official paid plugins I'll only see 8?

Object based codecs needs to make a calibration of your set up to know the position of your speakers in your room to make the projection of objects on your speakers. So it is not just a simple decoding like 7.1
I'm not aware of object based decoder as a software on PC.

 

[JJB70]

AVRs tend to be driven by feature set and power output. Their SINAD may not be stellar but I would be amazed if many could discern any difference between a lower cost AVR and a SOTA DAC and amplifier set up if used within its limits. What is a much bigger issue is the way some manufacturers misrepresent power output. In fairness for most people even that is unlikely to make any difference (how many really listen at ear bleeding volume?) but I find it dishonest.

 

[hmt]

Plenty of nice DACs with >120 dB performance.
Active speakers and we're done.

Not even close. Again: it is not helpful to focus on pseudo problems like SINAD > 80 db or even > 100 db.

 

[FrantzM]

Having a Sinad of a 5$ dongle for a 4,000$ AVR is still very sad.

Here is the thing. SINAD is just one metric. I would quote @JJB70's post ...

There is more to make a great HT than SINAD. It is one metric. Not an end-it-all. I think that anything with a SINAD >80 dB is transparent. No adverb required. The issue of integrating several speakers as to present a realistic soundstage/soundscape to the listeners is not a given either. This is not SINAD driven. A given person could well be knowledgeable enough to concoct its own Processor. It will likely cost that person more than anticipated or fail entirely as the most advanced CODECs do not seem to be available to the general public. Past 7 channels, mere mortals, Joe Audiophile can't get them or so it seems ... You may have to fight a long war for DRM, Ask the biggies like Denon et al.
Speakers integration is never easy, you add more speakers and the difficulty increases, exponentially.
The list of obstacles doesn't stop at those...

If I were to go SOTA on HT. I would start with the best Pre/Pros available: Either the TrinnoV Altitude 16 or 32 or Storm Audio. From there I would decide on the complement of speakers and subwoofers. For subwoofer, JTR, SVS PSA, Rythmik and Danley, yes that Danley Sound Labs. Their DTS10 and DTS-20 verge on the spectacular in term of output .. Read the specs HERE to form an opinion. For speakers, the powered speakers with serious dynamic capabilities, JBL in front but Genelec too...their "Main Monitors, click HERE" series is no joke.. including the rarely mentioned S360...

The processing power, ease of use and provided support of the aforementioned TOL PrePros like the Trinnov Altitude is not easy to replicate with a cobbled-up solution. Some would call it impossible, I know I would. At this point in time a SOTA begins with one of these PrePro (Trinnov or Storm).

Peace.

 

[apgood]

Here is the thing. SINAD is just one metric. I would quote @JJB70's post ...

There is more to make a great HT than SINAD. It is one metric. Not an end-it-all. I think that anything with a SINAD >80 dB is transparent. No adverb required. The issue of integrating several speakers as to present a realistic soundstage/soundscape to the listeners is not a given either. This is not SINAD driven. A given person could well be knowledgeable enough to concoct its own Processor. It will likely cost that person more than anticipated or fail entirely as the most advanced CODECs do not seem to be available to the general public. Past 7 channels, mere mortals, Joe Audiophile can't get them or so it seems ... You may have to fight a long war for DRM, Ask the biggies like Denon et al.
Speakers integration is never easy, you add more speakers and the difficulty increases, exponentially.
The list of obstacles doesn't stop at those...

If I were to go SOTA on HT. I would start with the best Pre/Pros available: Either the TrinnoV Altitude 16 or 32 or Storm Audio. From there I would decide on the complement of speakers and subwoofers. For subwoofer, JTR, SVS PSA, Rythmik and Danley, yes that Danley Sound Labs. Their DTS10 and DTS-20 verge on the spectacular in term of output .. Read the specs HERE to form an opinion. For speakers, the powered speakers with serious dynamic capabilities, JBL in front but Genelec too...their "Main Monitors, click HERE" series is no joke.. including the rarely mentioned S360...

The processing power, ease of use and provided support of the aforementioned TOL PrePros like the Trinnov Altitude is not easy to replicate with a cobbled-up solution. Some would call it impossible, I know I would. At this point in time a SOTA begins with one of these PrePro (Trinnov or Storm).

Peace.

With a Trinnov 32 you can have 16 digital channels out and with a StormAudio 32 digital channels out AES/EBU so you can pair that with whatever dac you want for multi channel sound and active crossovers.

 

[Vincentponcet]

With a Trinnov 32 you can have 16 digital channels out and with a StormAudio 32 digital channels out AES/EBU so you can pair that with whatever dac you want for multi channel sound and active crossovers.

For 20k$ .... That's outrageous

 

[apgood]

For 20k$ .... That's outrageous

If you buy 2nd hand you pay at least half that, just need to wait for the right price.

The title of this thread talks about SOTA home theatre. The only processors that decode more than 16 channels in Atmos & DTS:X Pro are Trinnov and StormAudio.

 

[hmt]

I can just reiterate to think about the Monoprice htp-1. It gets you mostly there.

 

[Dave Zan]

For the most part, today's AVRs are capable of transparent sound reproduction, in the sense that frequency response is flat, noise is low, and distortion is typically below 1%:

If you have inefficient speakers or don't hear well or live somewhere noisy, probably.
Otherwise noise is an issue, here's the data from Amir

So typical (median) value is 81 db
(Edit, as pointed out this is SINAD, but it is dominated by noise for the typical AVR so the distinction makes no practical difference in this context. This can be checked in Amir's full reviews)
That's referenced to 5 Watts, so 7 dB worse referenced to 1 W.
74 dB below 1 W but moderately efficient speakers are ~ 90 dB/1 m sensitive so ~ 16 dB of noise @ 1m, that's typically audible in a quiet room.
Partly because typical room noise doesn't mask hiss very well, possibly there are directional effects too, we have evolved to separate noises from different directions.
OK, there are a few quibbles, you probably sit further than 1 m for home theatre unless you use near field monitors, and maybe the 4 ohm assumption is a bit out.
On the other side, I have very efficient JBL speakers with compression drivers and live in a quiet suburb of a quiet city in a house with double brick exterior walls which reduces inbound noise transmission massively and solar passive so no HVAC internal noise.
My typical AVR is clearly audible, not transparent at all.
That's partly what prompted this thread.

The typical 7.1-channel AVR is very cheap

"Cheap" is a subjective opinion of course. But I just can't say it for thousand dollar AVRs when Bluetooth, radio, streamers and the like really are cheap and should only add a minimum to the cost.
Let alone $17,000 pre-pros with worse performance than $100 DACs, when they don't even have the excuse of "it has...radio, and power amplifiers."

Reliability of my Marantz NR1608 hasn't been perfect, but, knock on wood, I think I've solved the problem... some of the internal connections. I shouldn't need to do this on a late-model receiver...

No, you shouldn't.
That was another part of what prompted this thread.
Poor reliability from my Harman Kardon AVR, partly due to poor architecture, too much junk and too many connectors to fail.
To unload some of the functionality into a separate module would help.

The HP 12c avatar takes me back to my days in B-School.

Actually it's an 11c, I did Mathematical Statistics and Computer Science so it was a toss up between the 16c for the hexadecimal functions and the 11c for the stats.
20 years later I went back to B-school myself, and the 11c still worked perfectly.
It epitomises what I like, reliability and functionality that doesn't date so I wrote a little thank you note
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...industrial-design-favorites.17080/post-584451
I don't think many AVRs will be much use in 20 years.

.All those DACs with no EQ or room correction are useless, even relatively cheap AVRs include these baseline requirements...

Well...I never mentioned any intention to remove EQ and room correction.
I just don't think that the AVR is necessarily the best place to put it.
Speaker EQ should be tied with the speakers.
Why replace all the DSP just because new video standards have made the Codecs and/or connectors obsolete?
Not to mention the need to redo all the room equalisation and set up.

And they trick people [that] 95 vs 115 matters when it doesn't matter at all.

Maybe, but we typically aren't close to 95 see data above.
Since the standard for cinema sound has peak levels of 105 dB SPL I would say that that is about the level when we don't care (or I don't).
Perhaps a little better if you want absolute silence even if you happen to be near the speakers momentarily (not when they play @ 105 !)

SINAD is just one metric. I would quote @JJB70's post ...

Yes, for sure SINAD is just one metric, and frequently abused.
But in my case it happens to be quite relevant, in particular the noise aspect so I'll use S/N.

I think...a SINAD >80 dB is transparent. No adverb required.

I used the word for a reason.
120 dB S/N means even if the amps are turned up to the maximum tolerable level then the noise is inaudible so I'd call that "utterly" transparent.
80 dB S/N, as shown above is audible with efficient speakers.
My own speakers are _very_ efficient and noise is audible even far from the speakers.

...to concoct its own Processor. It will likely cost that person more than anticipated or fail entirely as the most advanced CODECs do not seem to be available

Yes, I have no intention to do this.
As I explained, it seems best to let the AVR do the video and decode.
The idea is only to extract the audio before the DAC

I would start with the best Pre/Pros available: Either the TrinnoV Altitude 16 or 32 or Storm Audio.

By the time these are landed in Australia they are >$20,000.
Too much for a component that will be obsolete in a few years, just like HDMI replaced component, then 4k then 8k etc,
Which leads to my point, I want the part that becomes obsolescent to be cheap part.
After all, the sound bits from a cheap AVR should be just the same as the bits from an expensive one.

From there I would decide on the complement of speakers and subwoofers... For speakers, the powered speakers with serious dynamic capabilities, JBL in front...

As explained above, JBL already done!

This is essentially what... Genelec SAM monitors [do]. They can take care of D/A conversion, bass management, crossover, room correction and volume control, except that the interface to control that...is a bit too inflexible....

Thank you for that information.
To my mind that seems exactly the way to do it so it reassures me to learn that a company of people as smart and successful as Genelec also think so.
It probably helps that they can do a "clean slate" solution, unrestricted by any investment, financial or otherwise in the AVR model.
Best of luck with your enhancement project.

Best wishes
David

 

[hmt]

When you listen to very efficient speakers at 1m distance, yes. Otherwise it does not really matter. The graph you posted shows SINAD, not noise btw.

 

[JeffS7444]

OK, there are a few quibbles, you probably sit further than 1 m for home theatre unless you use near field monitors, and maybe the 4 ohm assumption is a bit out.
On the other side, I have very efficient JBL speakers with compression drivers and live in a quiet suburb of a quiet city in a house with double brick exterior walls which reduces inbound noise transmission massively and solar passive so no HVAC internal noise.
My typical AVR is clearly audible, not transparent at all.
That's partly what prompted this thread.

What does the in-room frequency response of your system look like? Here's what the center channel of mine looks like before and after Audyssey room correction, as measured by the measurement mic supplied by Marantz, and the Audyssey app for iOS. My system has fairly innocuous response in the regions where my ears would be most sensitive to peaks, with downward-sloping high frequencies. 2 kHz dip is per Audyssey default target response, not sure why they do that. Equalization like this isn't going to emphasize noise, that's for sure.

For comparison's sake, here's Audyssey's target response:

Your high frequency hearing may also simply be better than mine: I'm approaching 60 years old, and I'm sure mine isn't what it once was, though the last time I checked, I could still could still hear up to 16 kHz or thereabouts.

Room noise in my apartment is mostly subsonic. No forced-air HVAC in use.

Cinema speakers are a set of little Klipsch Quintet IIIs sourced from a nearby thrift store. Speakers are equipped with compression tweeters. Typical distance from speakers is about 1.7 M (it's a small apartment).

 

[HiFidFan]

Get your room built right first. Then alignment. Then we talk about hardware.

Agreed.

SOTA HT is starts with the room, IMO.

 

[Dave Zan]

What does the in-room frequency response of your system look like?

My new measurement mic is stuck in Sydney due to Covid lockdown, so no screen shots yet. Hopefully soon.

may also simply be better than mine:

I don't claim any "audiophile" abilities in respect of what I can hear, that's for sure.

Room noise in my apartment is mostly subsonic.

Any idea of the sound level in your apartment?
I am in a detached house on it's own block so that helps with noise level.
What city are you in?
Visitors to my town make jokes about how it is so quiet, must be a cemetery.
Nice for audio however.

Cinema speakers are a set of little Klipsch Quintet IIIs sourced from a nearby thrift store. Speakers are equipped with compression tweeters.

Those speakers have a 3½" "woofer" and are passive, I believe.
So even a compression tweeter will be padded down to match the efficiency of the woofer, and that will be lowish, whatever Klipsch's claims.
If you don't have a problem with noise then I would suspect that's most of the reason.
And if that works for you then save money and enjoy!

...SOTA HT is starts with the room, IMO.

Yes, of course, I assumed that didn't even need to be said.
The benefit of my plan is that if I don't spend vast sums on the AVR then I have more money for room treatment where it makes more difference.

Best wishes
David

 

[Kal Rubinson]

View attachment 148956
Cinema speakers are a set of little Klipsch Quintet IIIs sourced from a nearby thrift store. Speakers are equipped with compression tweeters. Typical distance from speakers is about 1.7 M (it's a small apartment).

I think the lack of correction in the 150-500Hz range is disappointing.

 

[JeffS7444]

Any idea of the sound level in your apartment?

With the large glass sliding door closed (which is typical during the colder months), I measure about 34 dB, A-weighted, and 44 dB, C-weighted using Radio Shack digital SPL meter #3300099.

 

[HighImpactAV]

Like a lot of people on this site, I am amazed that there is no really State Of The Art home theatre solution.

I consider my system to be State of the Art. High SINAD of 115 dB+, high output voltage capability (+24 dBu), DC coupled DAC and amplifiers, ultra low distortion speakers and subs, high sensitivity speakers and subs, high output capability (~140 db), and basically unlimited bass routing capability.

I have the following system for audio:

Processor: StormAudio ISP with AVB board (16 analog & 32 channels of digital output via AVB)
AVB Interface for HTPC: RME Digiface AVB
AVB Network Switch: Luminex GigaCore 10
DAC: RME M-32 DA Pro (AVB from StormAudio or directly from HTPC - 32 channels of DA conversion)
Speaker Amps: 17 channels of Cherry MEGAschino MONO, MEGAschino Stereo, and Maraschino 60v MONO amps
Subwoofer Amps: 3 ea SpeakerPower SP2-4800 (2x2400 watts)
Main Speakers: 3 ea RTJ Audio 410RM
Surround Speakers: 16 ea RTJ Audio 110
Subwoofers: 6 ea of RJT Audio 18Sub

 

[andymok]

a lot of times, the bottleneck is either the room, alignment, or gain structures.

Replacing equipment is easy, so there is no point to single out an equipment. The other two done right at the first time, not so.

 

[andymok]

https://gracedesign.com/products/monitor-controllers/m908

This can likely let you get some good s.o.t.a sound even in Dolby Atmos. It is expensive to be sure. Does the decoding, has built in DSP and can do room correction for each monitor for up to 24 monitors.

Monitor controller doesn't decode anything afaik. They simply take multi-ch PCM/DSD and do all the routing/up-mix/down-mix matrixes with a flip of switch outside the box.

m908 System Flow Diagram Rev C