State of the art digital setup

[LF78]

First of all I would like to thank you all for the incredible valuable information available here: I'm a long time lurker and I'm stalking these pages a lot.

My current digital setup is: FLAC material -> Chromecast Audio -> TOSLINK -> miniDSP 2x4 HD -> 4 channels power amplifier -> passive left/right/sub speakers.

I'm very happy about it, but I'm wondering: what could be a real "state of the art" digital setup?

• Source: a possible upgrade from Chromecast Audio could be this USB transport: https://www.allo.com/sparky/usbridge.html. Any feedback on it?
• DSP: it could be wise to separate DSP and DAC for maximum flexibility. Is there a digital input/digital output DSP on the market? I found this: https://www.minidsp.com/products/opendrc-series/opendrc-di. But input and output is not USB, that I understood is preferable. Digital volume control should happen at this stage also.
• DAC: is there a multichannel (minimum 4) DAC on the market, with similar quality as Topping D50 or other high performance DACs? If volume control happens at this stage it should be performed digitally, and of course input should be USB.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts and suggestions!

 

[andreasmaaan]

This unit from MiniDSP combines DSP and DACs, and does exactly what you're asking for I believe. The DACs are of similar quality to the D50. Measurements here.

For a cheaper option that does similar, you could stack this unit from MiniDSP with a pair of D30s, D50s, etc. Connection from the source can be done via USB, and connection from the DSP to the DACs is via SPDIF.

Note that the second option doesn't allow for FIR filters or DIRAC.

EDIT: just to clarify as I realise now it may not have been so clear... both options allow for USB input, crossover implementation, equalisation, and digital volume control. Only the Studio (first option) allows for FIR filters and DIRAC.

 

[Jorj]

I've been looking seriously at a MiniDSP unit also. Basically it would future-proof me for years to come. Streaming, DSP and DAC, all in one box. Amir has shown that it measures perfectly fine, so no more is needed. I don't think there is any need to go for a separate DAC. Spend the money on better speakers and some room treatments.

Honestly, it's shocking how much money I have NOT spent on audio gear, and have a system that sounds just fine....fine indeed.

 

[LF78]

Thanks for your input!

This unit from MiniDSP combines DSP and DACs, and does exactly what you're asking for I believe

So basically you don't see any value in separating components? Just to be clear, I'm perfectly fine with my current setup, but I was dreaming about a future proof "state of the art" setup here

you could stack this unit from MiniDSP with a pair of D30s, D50s

I believe it's not supporting USB input (and output).

I've been looking seriously at a MiniDSP unit also

Go for it. I'm really in love with my miniDSP 2x4 HD.

 

[andreasmaaan]

So basically you don't see any value in separating components? Just to be clear, I'm perfectly fine with my current setup, but I was dreaming about a future proof "state of the art" setup here

I don't believe any DAC other than those in the MiniDSP SHD, even if better performing, will be audibly superior.

I believe it's not supporting USB input (and output).

You're right! My mistake, had misread the datasheet.

Re: USB output, however, this is actually something you don't want in this case. USB is asynchronious, whereas you want all the digital signals feeding whatever DACs you use to be running off the same clock.

USB input I can understand you preferring, it's much more convenient than adding a separate USB/SPDIF converter.

However, if you want to save money and DIRAC/FIR filters are not of interest to you, a conceivable chain could be:

Chromecast OR Topping D10 (as USB/SPDIF converter) -- MiniDSP NanoDigi -- 2 x Topping D30 -- amps

Off the top of my head that would end up costing under $500, about half the price of the MiniDSP SHD.

 

[BillG]

A free standing, Wi-Fi enabled, storage device of some type, preferably with UPnP/DLNA/SAMBA support, which could/would mirror your library which, I'll assume, is on a computer. With this, one would not need to power on the computer to access the library, leaving it instead for essential tasks. Also, one could stream, losslessly I might add, to the Chromecast Audio with this configuration as well, provided one has the right app on their mobile device.

I'm about to possess such a setup myself, as a I figured it would be an inexpensive way to create a networked audio streamer (ex. the Naim Uniti Nova can cost several thousand) without paying a ridiculous price for what is essentially a fanless PC, inexpensive touch display, and a hard/solid state drive...

 

[LF78]

Re: USB output, however, this is actually something you don't want in this case. USB is asynchronious, whereas you want all the digital signals feeding whatever DACs you use to be running off the same clock.

Oh ok I assumed from measurements posted here that asynchronous USB was the best way to feed a DAC, in terms of jitter, THD, etc... am I wrong?

A free standing, Wi-Fi enabled, storage device of some type, preferably with UPnP/DLNA/SAMBA support, which could/would mirror your library which, I'll assume, is on a computer.

I use Chromecast Audio both for internet streaming and playing FLAC files in my library, that I keep in a NAS. I think it's much more convenient than using a computer.

 

[BillG]

I use Chromecast Audio both for internet streaming and playing FLAC files in my library, that I keep in a NAS. I think it's much more convenient than using a computer.

That's the one...

 

[andreasmaaan]

Oh ok I assumed from measurements posted here that asynchronous USB was the best way to feed a DAC, in terms of jitter, THD, etc... am I wrong?

This is stretching my scope of knowledge, but I believe that's correct in many cases - it depends on how the various inputs/outputs are implemented on the digital source/DACs.

However, for your specific application I believe it's more important that all digital signals are clocked to the same master clock. This will avoid clocking differences between the two DACs, which will manifest as differences between the two speaker channels. Whatever way you do it, I don't think you're going to experience audible problems, but IMHO it would be inter-channel timing differences caused by running the DACs off two separate clocks that would be most likely to be of potentially audible concern.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Oh ok I assumed from measurements posted here that asynchronous USB was the best way to feed a DAC, in terms of jitter, THD, etc... am I wrong?

It is one of the best if you are feeding just one DAC. If you need to feed more, they need to have their clocks synched or you can use a U-DIO8 to get 3-4 synch-ed S/PDIF outputs from USB.

 

[LF78]

Ok now I understand, it's related to having multiple DACs. In my original idea I imagined a single multichannel DAC, hence USB could be the best.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Ok now I understand, it's related to having multiple DACs. In my original idea I imagined a single multichannel DAC, hence USB could be the best.

It can work either way and the latter offers more options for DAC choice.

 

[BillG]

The following is state of the art to me: active wireless speakers and a transceiver source-control hub. I'm actually close myself, with Wi-Fi and Bluetooth enabled integrated amp, Wi-Fi NAS, and passive speakers...


https://www.dali-speakers.com/loudspeakers/callisto/

 

[LF78]

Yes I agree, it seems that there aren't many options for multichannel DACs.

For the DSP part: do you think it could be feasible to implement it in software directly into the Allo USB transport, that it's basically a box running Linux? Is there a good DSP software for Linux doing the same things miniDSP is doing?

 

[pos]

You can try BruteFIR.
I am currently working myself on a realtime version of rephase that will do that sort of things on a dedicated linux machine with an UDIO-8 soundcard, all controlled with an HTML interface, but it is still work in progress...

 

[digitalfrost]

I have a setup similar to yours, only I use EqualizerAPO as crossover instead of MiniDSP, and I use the onboard 7.1 Realtek soundcard from my motherboard as output.

I go directly into 2 stereo power amplifiers from there. I often thought about buying better DACs, but the need for a digital crossover has always restricted me. There aren't a lot of multichannel DACs on the market, if you throw in certain quality requirements and want them affordable it becomes even harder.

Bob Katz has some interesting things to say about using multiple stereo DACs in the latest edition of his book 'Mastering Audio' in Chapter 21 'Monitor Setup'. Personally what I would do if highend DAC performance was important to me, as well as cost and more than 2 channels:

- Either get an RME Fireface UC or Fireface UCX

The Fireface UC has 6 high quality analog outputs and RME is known for their excellent drivers which draws me to their hardware big time. Most importantly, they can report a single 5.1 or 7.1 soundcard to Windows, whose channels I can route however I please. Most professional gear shows up as multiple isolated stereo interfaces with their WDM drivers, and you need to use ASIO to make full use of multi-channel.

- Get an RME Digiface USB and use standalone stereo DACs

This is my preferred solution. I have not implemented it yet, but I am pretty sure it will work. You can use optical SPDIF from the Digiface to go into various DACs, I think I would pair the Digiface with the Topping D50 since it's SPDIF-in is just as excellent as the USB input.

This would give multi-channel capable high-end DAC performance for very little money. My case is slightly different, because my PC is both my only source and the DSP/Crossover all-in-one.

Ofc if you need to need to do everything after the Chromecast, running a 2nd Windows PC just for DSP/Crossover is kinda overkill, however I think old cheap laptops would suffice here. I also 2nd the previous posters idea of using BruteFIR - I am not sure how well the RME cards work with Linux, but you could probably find something with SPDIF-in that would allow you to to interleave a DSP/Crossover before routing the audio into multiple stereo DACs, maybe even using multiple soundcards if necessary.

 

[LF78]

RME Fireface UC

This is a very interesting device, thanks for your detailed explanation! Does it have some basic DSP capabilities?

 

[digitalfrost]

Not in the sense that we need. This is a professional interface, as such it can do mixing and re-routing of audio channels, but it doesn't include any consumer DSP functions. The manual is available here:

http://www.rme-audio.de/download/fface_uc_e.pdf

You could pair the interface with a software DSP like EqualizerAPO, Thuneau Frequency Allocator or even DSP plugins for audio-players like foobar2000 if you don't need the DSP functions for all applications.

 

[digitalfrost]

LF78, FYI, I bought the RME Digiface and 2 Topping D50 DACs, everything works as expected.

 

[LF78]

Great!