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Starting From Scratch

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Muddywaters

Muddywaters

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My response to having subs is this. If you are not cracking your drywall during on screen cannon/artillery shots, then you might need more sub! Well, that might be a little over the top. But hey, overkill is fun!
I’ll have some fun with The 1812 Overture.
 

JRS

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I’ve seen them mentioned here. They are going to be at the Florida Audio Expo coming up mid month. I’ll definitely check them out there. Thanks
Let us all know. I need to correct the THX; its not the ultra certification but the more coveted and demanding 'Dominus." Priced in your wheelhouse: 7 to 10k depending on floor vs standmount. They make subs too.
 

JayGilb

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I’ll have to run both single ended rca and balanced xlr? Or maybe run one xlr cable but terminate as needed for rca/xlr as for flexibility? Some mogami or canare, monoprice bulk mic cable??? Any particular recommendation?
The monoprice cable is fine and will sound as good as more expensive mogami or canare. I would just hide xlr under the baseboards and just use endpoint adapters as required.
 
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Muddywaters

Muddywaters

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Let us all know. I need to correct the THX; its not the ultra certification but the more coveted and demanding 'Dominus." Priced in your wheelhouse: 7 to 10k depending on floor vs standmount. They make subs too.
I have been on their website prior.
 
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Muddywaters

Muddywaters

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The monoprice cable is fine as will sound as good as more expensive mogami or canare. I would just hide xlr under the baseboards and just use adapters as required.
Thanks! I need to do some measuring and add some slop. Should I run to middle of each wall? I may have to adjust depending on some furnishing locations. Haven’t focused on that aspect of the room :facepalm:
 

JayGilb

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Thanks! I need to do some measuring and add some slop. Should I run to middle of each wall? I may have to adjust depending on some furnishing locations. Haven’t focused on that aspect of the room :facepalm:
In my living room, I have ran xlr and flat hdmi cable in the small gap between the drywall and the floor that is hidden by the baseboard.
I had the luxury of placing the equipment prior to running the wiring, so no guess work was required.

To make it look more professional, I carved a small channel in my drywall, just tall enough to get above the floor plate, but lower than the baseboard and snaked the cable up to a outlet box mounted to the nearest vertical stud.

Edit: This is something you can do after you have optimally placed your speakers/subs. Just run the wires on the floor until you have finalized speaker placement and then hide the wiring behind the baseboard.
 
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Muddywaters

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I think the baseboards won’t go in until the wood floor goes down so I’ve got time to mull it over. I took the opportunity to run some ceiling, upper back surrounds for the ht during this mess. I had wired a sub hidden in the kitchen cabinetry behind the main viewing seats (during a major remodel 6 years ago) but surrendered that spot for the rebuild to my wife :(
 

Willem

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I would appreciate following your adventure dialing your subs in!
The SB2000 sub arrived yesterday, and today I wired the three subs (with temporary cables) and spent a few hours figuring out how to configure the miniDSP 2x4HD so at least it passes on the sound to the subs. I must say that without the dsp equalization the sound from the three subs is pretty crude and booming. Even the single B&W PV1d with my DSpeaker ANtimode 8033 was a lot cleaner. The SB2000 goes lower, but that probably means it also generates more room modes. It once again confirmed my earlier experience that subs without room eq are a no no. Time to start with the measurements for MSO. :(
 
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Muddywaters

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The SB2000 sub arrived yesterday, and today I wired the three subs (with temporary cables) and spent a few hours figuring out how to configure the miniDSP 2x4HD so at least it passes on the sound to the subs. I must say that without the dsp equalization the sound from the three subs is pretty crude and booming. Even the single B&W PV1d with my DSpeaker ANtimode 8033 was a lot cleaner. The SB2000 goes lower, but that probably means it also generates more room modes. It once again confirmed my earlier experience that subs without room eq are a no no. Time to start with the measurements for MSO. :(
Very much appreciate you sharing your experience. Thank you, I hope for great success!
 

Bob from Florida

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The SB2000 sub arrived yesterday, and today I wired the three subs (with temporary cables) and spent a few hours figuring out how to configure the miniDSP 2x4HD so at least it passes on the sound to the subs. I must say that without the dsp equalization the sound from the three subs is pretty crude and booming. Even the single B&W PV1d with my DSpeaker ANtimode 8033 was a lot cleaner. The SB2000 goes lower, but that probably means it also generates more room modes. It once again confirmed my earlier experience that subs without room eq are a no no. Time to start with the measurements for MSO. :(
Using the phone app to setup my SVS 3000 Micro in conjunction with the Audiotools app, the following is how I did it. Using the low frequency sweep function in Audiotools fed to my stereo I set the sub crossover, sub roll off, volume, and phase for a blended response with my main speakers - at my listening position. I also played with the room boundary setting but left it off. After doing this the sweep showed a need for additional output in the mid '20's, reduced output at 43 Hertz, and additional output at 60 Hertz. I used the 3 band equalizer in the sub to fix those peaks and valleys adjusting Q factor and gain as needed. Final sweep fairly smooth with overall bass fill in from the sub about 1-2 db higher than mains pickup above the sub roll off - personal choice for a touch more bass. I don't have system wide DSP, but for me the built in DSP in the sub did the blending trick.
 

Willem

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That souds like an effective and quite doable process. Until recently I used an Antimode 8033, which was both convenient and effective. Unfortunately it let through a nasty thud when my little Kef sub switched off. I tried everything I could, but to no avail. Since this did not happen when the subs were connected directly to my RME ADI-2, and since I planned to get a third sub, I decided to go the Multi Sub Optimizer and mini DSP 2x4 HD route.
For now I know that the 2x4 HD fortunately does not allow any switching noise to pass through. I have just ordered some cheap and sensible cables, and once all three subs will be in their final location I can start measuring.
I guess for many MSO will just be too complex, so for them I would think the DSpeaker x2 must be ideal. But using inbuilt subwoofer filters and measurement software sounds like a good idea as well.
 

Bob from Florida

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That souds like an effective and quite doable process. Until recently I used an Antimode 8033, which was both convenient and effective. Unfortunately it let through a nasty thud when my little Kef sub switched off. I tried everything I could, but to no avail. Since this did not happen when the subs were connected directly to my RME ADI-2, and since I planned to get a third sub, I decided to go the Multi Sub Optimizer and mini DSP 2x4 HD route.
For now I know that the 2x4 HD fortunately does not allow any switching noise to pass through. I have just ordered some cheap and sensible cables, and once all three subs will be in their final location I can start measuring.
I guess for many MSO will just be too complex, so for them I would think the DSpeaker x2 must be ideal. But using inbuilt subwoofer filters and measurement software sounds like a good idea as well.
Why is it - so often with technology - that we spend so much time playing "bug & play"? Having something just "work" without help - sometimes significant help seems somewhat rare these days.
 

Willem

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In the meantime the cables have arrived, improving the sound enormously:). I had set up the subs with some cables that I still had, but these were short, so the subs were not only located close to the amplifier, but also quite close to each other. With the new longer cables I could locate the subs as per Earl Geddes recommendation: the biggest sub in the front corner, a second medium sized sub at the back, and the smallest sub along a side wall. This is in a large room, so room modes were no longer bunched together. The resulting sound was very much cleaner, with significantly better defined bass. I must admit I was surprised by the impact of this theoreticaly better placement. The next step will be to equalize them with MSO, but that will take a bit more time.
 
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Muddywaters

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In the meantime the cables have arrived, improving the sound enormously:). I had set up the subs with some cables that I still had, but these were short, so the subs were not only located close to the amplifier, but also quite close to each other. With the new longer cables I could locate the subs as per Earl Geddes recommendation: the biggest sub in the front corner, a second medium sized sub at the back, and the smallest sub along a side wall. This is in a large room, so room modes were no longer bunched together. The resulting sound was very much cleaner, with significantly better defined bass. I must admit I was surprised by the impact of this theoreticaly better placement. The next step will be to equalize them with MSO, but that will take a bit more time.
I’m living vicariously through your posts imagining how things will sound and work in my room. The DSPeaker X4 is rather interesting too I need to study their various options though. Since I’m not stuck with any legacy equipment to fit into the (outside of some analog gear) system all options/approaches are on the table for this room.
 

Willem

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I did consider the DSpeaker X4 but decided that I could not afford it. The X2 now seems to offer neearly all the same features at a drastically lower price. In my case I have had Quad electrostats ever since 1976 because of their neutrality and clarity. Part of that clarity must be because as dipoles they excite fewer room modes. Their downside was and is that they are limited in output and in low frequency extension. That did not matter that much in the age of vinyl, but with digital sources we obtained clean low bass. Therefore, subwoofers became relevant. Their problem was that they do excite room modes, so the contrast with the ultra clean bass of the electrostats was all too obvious, and to such an extent that people claimed that it is hard or impossible to integrate electrostats and subs. That, however, is not true once you manage to integrate the subs with the room. This is what I experienced when I equalized by first sub with the ANtimode 8033. The integration was seamless andf the lowest frequencies sounded as clean as the higher ones. The downside was that this only worked well for one listening position, hence my more recent decision to add another two subs, and move over to Multi Sub Optimizer. The bad news is that whereas the ANtimode 8033 was dead easy to set up, MSO is another story. As I think I wrote before, I will use REW measurements and the filters in my RME ADI-2 DAC to equalize the range just above the 80 Hz crossover.
 
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Muddywaters

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I did consider the DSpeaker X4 but decided that I could not afford it. The X2 now seems to offer neearly all the same features at a drastically lower price.
I was wondering if I was missing something with X2, it seems very capable. The X4 is $$$.

I’m also interested in the RME ADI-2/4 Pro SE for it’s riaa input/record ability.
 
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Muddywaters

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That, however, is not true once you manage to integrate the subs with the room. This is what I experienced when I equalized by first sub with the ANtimode 8033. The integration was seamless andf the lowest frequencies sounded as clean as the higher ones. The downside was that this only worked well for one listening position, hence my more recent decision to add another two subs, and move over to Multi Sub Optimizer. The bad news is that whereas the ANtimode 8033 was dead easy to set up, MSO is another story. As I think I wrote before, I will use REW measurements and the filters in my RME ADI-2 DAC to equalize the range just above the 80 Hz crossover.
Your room is used not as a dedicated stereo listening room? Multipurpose family use? Thus the interest in improving bass response in multiple seats?
 

Willem

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Your room is used not as a dedicated stereo listening room? Multipurpose family use? Thus the interest in improving bass response in multiple seats?
The Netherlands are a densely populated country with high property prices (land is very expensive by US standards, and so are construction costs), and restrictions on suburban sprawl, so very few Dutch homes have dedicated listening rooms. Our house is pretty large by Dutch standards, and my wife and I both have large home offices, and the living space is large (70 sq m) and open plan. That will do for us. Sonically the large size is good for clean bass. The children have moved out, and we use the stereo system in the living room for music, but also for TV/HT sound. I have no interest in sitting on my own in a listening chair - I want good sound in as much of the living space as possible. I do have a nice audio system in my home office (Harbeth P3ESR and a Quad 405-2 amplifier).
 

Willem

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I’m also interested in the RME ADI-2/4 Pro SE for it’s riaa input/record ability.
I am very pleased with my ADI-2 DAC. At the time the Pro version did not have the RIAA faciulity, but, to be honest, I never use our record player anymore. The only sources we actually use are a Chromecast Audio for audio streaming, plus the optical digital outputs of the television and the Bluray player. Input switching is done automatically: https://www.tindie.com/products/beni_skate/automatic-spdif-opticalrca-audio-switch/
 
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