Starting at the bottom, taking the first step up.

[RHO]

I'm currently waiting for my Topping DX3 pro to arrive. It's my first DAC and headphone amp.
In the meantime I'm already contemplating my next upgrade. New headphones.
My current set-up is very, very basic. So upgrading is quite a challenge (too many options + not enough knowledge/experience).
My current setup consists of the following:
Sources: OnePlus Nord (only BT), Lenovo Ideapad 520 laptop (3.5mm headphone output, USB2.0, hdmi)
Headphones: Superlux 668B, Superlux 662F, Beyerdynamic DT770 Pro 250Ohm, Sony MDR-ZX770BN
Very short personal impressions about the HP's I own:
- Superlux 668B: very nice sounding for such a cheap product. Mids are a little bit up front. Bass is not too deep but still nice. Tonally something I certainly don't dislike. I use this one most for listening to music.
- Superlux 662F: The lesser of the 668B on all fronts. Sounds a bit plastic. Not my favorite. Don't use it much.
- Beyerdynamic DT770 Pro: Crisp highs, tighter and a little more deep bass than the Superlux 668B. Mids are much more drawn back. Voices sound too warm. Lots of detail in the highs and higher mids. Overall too much drawn back in the mids for me. Too much V shaped frequency curve I guess. I don't dislike it, but like the Superlux 668B more (driven by the HP output on the laptop!).
- Sony MDR-ZX770BN: Only used connected via BT to a phone. Actually quite nice sounding headphones. But I use it mostly to listen to podcasts and less for music listening.

I think for my first set of phones I should go for quite neutral sounding headphones. I would like it to be a reference point for maybe further upgrades. Something that matches the Harmann curve quite nicely maybe?
I've made a list of some products that look quite interesting to me:
Philips Fidelio X2HR
Sennheiser HD560s
Sennheiser HD600 (very top-end of my budget)
AKG K371 (cheap, but I read good things about it)
HiFiMAN HE-400i
DROP + HiFiMAN HE-4XX
Massdrop x Sennheiser HD6XX

Will any of these work well with the Topping DX3 pro?
I've listened to/looked at and read quite a few reviews already. So there's a reason the list is what it is.
Any favorites in there? And if so, why?
Feel free to suggest alternatives.

 

[RayDunzl]

Will any of these work well with the Topping DX3 pro?

Since you have so many different headphones now...

Listen to them all again with the new DAC/Amp.

Unless you just gotta buy something more to add to the collection.

I have one pair, HD650, seven years now, not crazed about headpphones myself.

 

[RHO]

Yeah, waiting for the DAC/amp to arrive and test what I already have is certainly not a bad idea.
But seeing what headphones I own I guess it's not too hard to find an upgrade. (maybe apart from the Beyers + DAC/amp?)
I'm not in a hurry. So I will take my time to get all the info I need before a purchase.

 

[Bob-23]

Yeah, waiting for the DAC/amp to arrive and test what I already have is certainly not a bad idea.
But seeing what headphones I own I guess it's not too hard to find an upgrade. (maybe apart from the Beyers + DAC/amp?)
I'm not in a hurry. So I will take my time to get all the info I need before a purchase.

I'd follow RayDunzl's advice, too. And wait at least until you'v eq'd your Beyers, in case you haven't done it yet. Look, if you find your phones in Oratory1990's list of settings.

Apart from that, when choosing new phones, it's good to know what you're looking for. Comfort should always be a major factor (51 %): clamping pressure (can often be reduced by bending the headband, e.g. at the X2HR or the HD600), width and depth of the earcups, depending on the size of your ears (can only be reduced by cosmetic surgery; X2HR's earcups are a bit wider than the Senn's), and weight (X2HR weigh more than the Senns).

Do you mainly listen vocals? Then the HD600 may be a good choice.

How about (wide) soundstage? Your current phones seem to be relatively 'weak' in that regard. (Look at Rtings.) There might be something to discover for you. But it depends on your priorities, not everybody needs wide soundstages.

Soundstagewise, the HD600 are not the first choice. The X2HR are here clearly better (but not as good in vocals, and vocals maybe a bit hissing in some recordings). When eq'd they're good alrounders, and to me, their involving open, spacious soundstage outweighs a certain minus in soundquality (compared to the Senns). But I listen mainly to instrumental music, Jazz and Classical, nearly no vocals.

The Hifimans are also said to have wide soundstages - but maybe more inhead vs. more in-front-of-the-head than the X2Hrs:

"The soundstage performance of the HE-400i is good. The PRTF graph shows a good amount of accuracy, and a decent amount of pinna interaction/activation. However, the notch around the 10KHz region is not very accurate or deep, which suggests a soundstage that is relatively natural and large but located inside the listener's head. Also, because of their very open enclosure, their soundstage will be perceived to be more open than that of closed-back headphones."
https://www.rtings.com/headphones/reviews/hifiman/he-400i

"The Philips X2HR have a very good passive soundstage. Thanks to their open-back design, their soundstage is very spacious and open and music is perceived as being in front of you as opposed to inside your head."
https://www.rtings.com/headphones/reviews/philips/fidelio-x2hr

I myself would like to, finally, test the HD560s, in particuar with regards to their soundstage: there are some contradictory opinions.
Meanwhile, Rtings has measured the HD560s, here's their comparison with the X2HR:
"The Philips Fidelio X2HR and Sennheiser HD 560S have different strengths in regards to neutral listening but share similar overall sound profiles. The Sennheiser have a more stable fit, better peaks and dips performance, and exhibit less audio distortion. Conversely, the Philips are more sturdily built and have better stereo imaging performance as well as a more expansive soundstage."
https://www.rtings.com/headphones/reviews/sennheiser/hd-560s

Thus spake, at least, Rtings.

But first eq your Beyers.

 

[RHO]

Those are some interesting reviews with exactly the info I was looking for. Thanks!
Seems like the Philips is something I would enjoy.

I listen to ... everything: metal, classical, blues, jazz. pop, rock, house ... but no German schlagers .

I don't really know what to look for in new headphones first, since what I have now isn't that impressive at all. Staging is that bad that I haven't even payed much attention to it (it's centered between the ears). So I was actually looking for some phones that match the Harman curve nicely and that that as a good entry-point into the hobby.
Your review examples make it abundantly clear that there much more to headphones than just how they sound.
I have time. I'll check out more sources to catch up on some knowledge before I make a purchase.

As for equalizing the Beyers: What software do I use?

 

[RHO]

OK, I have installed "Peace" and applied the eq's for the Beyer 770 and Superlux 668B.
This makes quite a difference. Takes the sharp edges off. Maybe I like the Beyers better than the Superlux now. Not 100% sure yet, since the differences are smaller after eq.

 

[RHO]

***Warning: LONG POST!***

Great! I'm enjoying listening to my headphones much more now that I've got them EQ'd.
Now that makes me even more interested in finding some phones I can enjoy without, or with very little EQ. And also switching between different types of headphones has become interesting to me. So I'm still looking for a new pair. Since the Beyers are closed back, the Superlux are more half open, I'm now looking for an open model. I made a new shortlist. (some models return, I've added some)

- Sennheiser HD-560s
- Sennheiser HD-600
- Sennheiser HD-650
- Sennheiser HD-660s
- Hifiman HE-400i
- Hifiman Sundara

I haven’t mentioned any Drop products here since importing them into Belgium involves quite a bit of taxes: ((product+shipping) + 2%))+21%. I don’t know if it still makes sense to purchase my headphones outside the EU.

From all the reviews I've watched and read and all the measurements I've looked at, these seem the ones that make the most chance to match my taste. All have some deviations from the ideal in some areas, but all have strong points I think I will enjoy a lot.

It seems that the HD-560s matches the Harman curve most accurately. (I've EQd my current HP's to this curve and like them quite a bit better than before EQ, so I keep this as a target) I think I like the 2013 Harman target better than the 2018 Harman target. So the slight drop under the 2018 target curve below 100Hz this model has is no issue.

Comparing the HD-600 to the same target curve it seems like the bass drops off a little more. Maybe this will be just a bit too much too my liking. It’s about 10dB down from the target and about 6dB down compared to the 560s. The Beyerdynamic 770 pro I’m listening to now has a bump around 35Hz (3dB over the target) which is noticeable. Even after EQ. (but less distracting) Taking this into account I think the 560s will still be to my liking but the 600 could sound a bit thin lean.

Throughout the midrange both 560s and 600 follow the target quite nicely, apart from the small dip in the target between 150Hz to 250Hz. In the high-mid and low treble range the 600 rizes above the target, where the 560s stays a bit below up to about 3kHz. I suspect this means voices will sound more forward on the 600. The 560s has some peaks in the treble range, where the 600 follows the target a bit more and both drop below the target from about 9.kHz. Will the 560s sound a bit fresher or is there a chance it will sound sibilant with its peaks @4.3Khz and 9.1Khz?

Looking at the HD-650, I notice that it stays quite nicely with the target curve throughout the midrange. Above and below the midrange it stays below this curve. In other words: The midrange seems elevated compared to the rest of the frequencies. In the high mid and low treble it actually tracks the target real accurately. Here the 560s stays a bit below the curve. The HD-650 has peaks in the treble at around the same spots the 560s has them but at about a -7dB amplitude. I’m not sure if this all results in the 650 sounding a bit forward in the midrange?

Comparing the HD-660s to the target it drops a little less far below the curve in the bass region compared to the 600 and 650, but still stays below what the 560s is showing. In the high mids it’s equal to the 600 and 650 which means that it tracks the target almost perfectly. As mentioned, the 560s stays below the target between 1kHz and 2.5kHz. The 660s starts to drop below the curve from 3.2kHz on, up to over 7kHz. There a big dip in that region. I’m afraid it will make this headphone sound a bit muffled. Anyone can attest to that?

The Hifiman HE-400i has a quite comparable curve to the 560s and tracks the target curve fairly accurately. It also has a bit less output in the bass region, but more than the HD-600/650/660s. In the low treble it tracks the target better than the 560s. From 4.8kHz to 6.2kHz it sits below the target. Makes it sound a bit softer/warmer? In this region the 560s is more forward. Above this region, in the lower mid-treble, the roles reverse and the HE-400i rises above the target (adding fine detail?) where the Sennheisers drop below the target.

Now, the Sundara … does not deviate from the 560s or target much… Where the 560s has a dip and then a peak in the mid-treble, the Sundara has a wider, lower peak but no dip. The bass is a little louder on the 560s but not much.

Looking at these curves I think I can conclude these things:
I think the 600-series headphones will sound a bit thin to me. The bass output is a bit far below the target curve, even when taking the 2013 curve into account. There’s not to much difference throughout the midrange, but starting at the higher mids the 600 series shows differences, where I think I would prefer the 560s.
I think I could enjoy the mid-range and high frequency range of the HE-400i quite a bit. Do I like the extra lows on the 560s more?
Will I prefer the high-mid and treble signature of the Sundara more than the 560s? It’s quite possible! Will I mis the extra dB in the bass? Possibly not.

I think my favorites are the Sundara and HD-560s, not necessarily in that order.

Since I haven’t had any opportunity to listen to any of these, I know only what I’ve read about resolution, staging, distortion,... from online reviewers opinions. And I value them.

So I would like you people to chime in.
Anything you disagree with from my observations comparing the freq. curves to the target?
Any user experience comparing some models from my list?
Any alternatives?

 

[brachypelma44]

I just got the Sundara a week ago, and after EQ, they sound terrific to me. Not too bright or harsh to my ears. Compared to the Fidelio X2, they definitely allow you to hear more vocal and treble detail. As of now, these are my primary headphones. Music just sparkles on them.

The X2 is still a good all-rounder, especially now that you can get X2HR for dirt cheap. It has more bass by default. The bass of the Sundara is firm and punchy after EQ, but if overwhelming bass is important to you, the Sundara probably aren't ideal.

I'm using both sets of headphones with a Monolith THX 788. I have a 6XX (which is basically the HD 650 from what I've read) coming in a few days as well, so I look forward to hearing them and comparing them to the others.

 

[RHO]

My Topping DX3 pro came in today. Now listening to my DT-770 pro (250 Ohm).
The reduction in noise and distortion makes for quite a different listening experience.

 

[RHO]

I just got the Sundara a week ago, and after EQ, they sound terrific to me. Not too bright or harsh to my ears. Compared to the Fidelio X2, they definitely allow you to hear more vocal and treble detail. As of now, these are my primary headphones. Music just sparkles on them.

The X2 is still a good all-rounder, especially now that you can get X2HR for dirt cheap. It has more bass by default. The bass of the Sundara is firm and punchy after EQ, but if overwhelming bass is important to you, the Sundara probably aren't ideal.

I'm using both sets of headphones with a Monolith THX 788. I have a 6XX (which is basically the HD 650 from what I've read) coming in a few days as well, so I look forward to hearing them and comparing them to the others.

To what target do you EQ? Do you take a specific target curve as your starting point and later tweak to your own liking? Or do you just go by the best fit to the target curve of your choice?
I think the Sundara will be quite to my liking too, but since the HD-560s matches its frequency response quite evenly, the differences in sound experience will be found elsewhere. Hard to tell if you only have graphs to your disposal. We're only allowed in shops for max 30 minutes, alone. So going to a store for a listening session is not really possible right now.

 

[Robin L]

I've got both the 6XX and X2HR 'phones, along with a low power DAP [Fiio M3K], the Topping E/L stack, a more high power DAP [Fiio X1 with a Fiio portable amp, don't use it for reasons that will become obvious] and other stuff that doesn't pretend to be Audiophile. Playing Apple Lossless files ripped from CDs and playing through the Topping stacklette, the 6XX comes out best, not that the Philips headphones come out bad. But I've APO eq-ed the 6XX phones for Topping playback, and it's the Drop 'phones that require the most power. The X2HR 'phones are remarkable in how little power they require, so they sound their best [overall] hooked up to the little, lightweight, Fiio M3K. The other Fiio gear I've got is too big and too heavy for my pockets. And the 6XX headphones are distinct in their cleanliness plugged into the Topping gear. I'd say the 6XX, or in your case, the 650, 'phones would be your best bet, assuming you use EQ. If not, the Philips are a better bet, their bass is robust even with the tiny Fiio player, they soundstage really well, the upper octaves are rougher than the 6XX/650 'phones, but I don't know of anything smoother on top than these Sennheiser headphones. I haven't heard the Sennheiser 600s, suspect they would be very similar to the 6XX/650 headphones. The 6XX/650 phones don't have the bass impact of the X2HR headphones, but with lots of EQ they can go deeper, and in any case, do so with more accuracy/less distortion.

I've got a bunch of other headphones, none of which come close to these two headphones.

 

[brachypelma44]

To what target do you EQ? Do you take a specific target curve as your starting point and later tweak to your own liking? Or do you just go by the best fit to the target curve of your choice?
I think the Sundara will be quite to my liking too, but since the HD-560s matches its frequency response quite evenly, the differences in sound experience will be found elsewhere. Hard to tell if you only have graphs to your disposal. We're only allowed in shops for max 30 minutes, alone. So going to a store for a listening session is not really possible right now.

So, I'm going off of the Sundara (2020 w/ revised pads) Oratory1990 settings. For my own ease of use, since I'm running between two rooms and manually entering the shelf EQs and PEQs on the Monolith, I've cropped this out of the PDF and printed it out:

It sounds great to me. I'm not planning on tinkering with it. (Edit: Now I remember, I adjusted the low shelf from +5.5db to +6db because I wanted a tiny little more bass, and +6/-6db is as far as the EQ goes on the Monolith. It's probably an inaudible change at +0.5db, but oh well.)

I'm really looking forward to seeing how the 6XX compare once they arrive. A lot of people hold them in very high regard. I suspect it is a matter of taste and what kind of music you listen to. I'm mostly listening to EDM, synthwave, rock, industrial, and metal.

I am planning on having one set of phones in my home theater room, and a second set in my office. As of now, it's the Sundara in the HTR and the X2 in the office, but it's entirely possible that the 6XX will change this arrangement once it arrives. I am planning to buy a second Monolith THX 788 for the office after the holidays. I just love that unit.

 

[RHO]

Although I do use EQ, I would like to keep it to a minimum. In some instanced I do not have the possibility to use EQ and I would like the new phones jus as much in those situations.
I'm a bit worried that the Sennheiser 6** series is lacking a bit in that regard. I think the Sundara and 560s perform better in that regard. On the other hand I'm also very curious about the mids and highs of the 6** series.
I think I still have to take a closer look at those curves and compare them to the phones I already own and see what I want to be different.

@brachypelma44 : I use the same source for my EQ curves. I use Peace/Equaliser APO on the laptop and Wavelet on the Android phone.

 

[Vict0r]

My inner Head-Fi geek says "Buy an HD600. It's a classic for a reason! Everyone into headphone audio should've owned at least an HD600 in their collection."
My inner objectivist says "Buy an HD600. It measures very well and has been a staple for many years, used by professionals and audiophiles alike."

Buuuuut... Technology moves on and I'm sure there's better out there these days. I haven't been into headphones for a while now. I own a DT880, K701, SR60, SR225i, HD280 Pro, HD580, HD590, HD600, HD650, ATH-AD700 and a bunch of random Superluxes, Koss Portapro's and about a dozen in-ear monitors. These were all bought many years ago, though, so I honestly couldn't recommend anything based on what's for sale right now.

Whatever you buy, make sure you pick up a Blon BL03 in-ears with them for about €30. I would advice everyone on this forum to pick one of those up. Lovely tuned, Harman curve goodness for peanuts. Not a headphone, I know, but still worth every cent. Check the reviews!

 

[RHO]

My inner Head-Fi geek says "Buy an HD600. It's a classic for a reason! Everyone into headphone audio should've owned at least an HD600 in their collection."
My inner objectivist says "Buy an HD600. It measures very well and has been a staple for many years, used by professionals and audiophiles alike."

Buuuuut... Technology moves on and I'm sure there's better out there these days. I haven't been into headphones for a while now. I own a DT880, K701, SR60, SR225i, HD280 Pro, HD580, HD590, HD600, HD650, ATH-AD700 and a bunch of random Superluxes, Koss Portapro's and about a dozen in-ear monitors. These were all bought many years ago, though, so I honestly couldn't recommend anything based on what's for sale right now.

Whatever you buy, make sure you pick up a Blon BL03 in-ears with them for about €30. I would advice everyone on this forum to pick one of those up. Lovely tuned, Harman curve goodness for peanuts. Not a headphone, I know, but still worth every cent. Check the reviews!

I can't stand IEM's. None of them fit my ears, ever.

I'll keep the HD600 in my short list.

 

[RHO]

In the meantime I got a HD6XX and Tin Hifi T2 plus in house.
Love the HD6XX.
I like the T2 plus but need to play with tips every day. My ears seem to change shape from day to day. But I can get good sound from them every time ... so I ordered the Moondrop Blessing 2 Dusk... I want to know what such an upgrade brings. If it's not what I expected I leave my IEM experiment for what it is.
Next upgrade will be headphones again. But that's for when I'm done laying with the Blessing 2 Dusk. (it takes some time for them to ship from China to my house)

 

[RHO]

The Blessing 2 Dusk have arrived.
These are amazing! The tuning on these is spot on!

 

[Acerun]

The Blessing 2 Dusk have arrived.
These are amazing! The tuning on these is spot on!

The speaker nozzles aren't too big and uncomfortable? I've heard they are large and I'm concerned that they will hurt my ears...then have to deal with returns to China...

 

[threni]

Comparing the HD-660s to the target it drops a little less far below the curve in the bass region compared to the 600 and 650, but still stays below what the 560s is showing.....The 660s starts to drop below the curve from 3.2kHz on, up to over 7kHz. There a big dip in that region. I’m afraid it will make this headphone sound a bit muffled. Anyone can attest to that?

Sounds like you're describing the diagrams here:
https://www.rtings.com/headphones/reviews/sennheiser/hd-660-s

Specifically the Bass/Treble accuracy diagrams. I have a pair and I think they're great but I don't disagree. I don't know how much is the headphones and how much is my hearing (can hear ~17kHz). I ended up going old school and getting a Schiit Loki to EQ them as I couldn't face faffing around on the computer (I use a headless Pi). I really like the Loki. Anyway, I've added a very slight bit of boost to the bass (the 20hz knob) and seasoned the treble (using both the 2kHz and 8kHz knobs) to taste. Fairly unscientific but I put together a playlist to cover a number of genres, including pieces I thought were a little dark sounding before, and spent some time a/b-ing it and I'm happy with the result.

 

[RHO]

The speaker nozzles aren't too big and uncomfortable? I've heard they are large and I'm concerned that they will hurt my ears...then have to deal with returns to China...

Not for me. I need XL tips on my Tin T2plus. I use the large tips on the B2D. The fit me perfectly. Maybe I have large ear canals.