Starke Sound AD4.320 Amp Review (Sample 2)

[Dj7675]

Over the past several years I have enjoyed both bench tests and reviews at Audioholics as well as the forum which I occasionally popped in on. Gene continues to….
-label ASR and its members as a cult/religion
-intentionally misrepresent Amir’s reviews as only dealing with SINAD (really?)
-referring to those that are members here as followers as if people here believe that is the only important aspect of a device
Adding all this up, I just messaged into have my account deleted. This of course means nothing in the grand scheme of things…

 

[dasdoing]

personaly I am not a fan of Amir (with all respect given), but I am sure a fan of how he gets under the skin of all those hypocrites hahahhaha.
(just to make sure I am not missunderstood: I AM a fan of his contribution to the community)

 

[Thomas savage]

I don't know why Gene thinks it is beneficial to him to say such things: https://forums.audioholics.com/foru...r-does-it-meet-power-spec.125868/post-1572133

View attachment 229562

He post what looked like a review and instead, was a fluff piece. Member here called him on it and he got angry and lashed out. Then demanded to have his account deleted which I did. It was all his own doing and it took every bit of restraint for me to not sanction him in the thread for his conduct. In other words, he brought the toxicity here himself.

The right answer if you are a consumer advocate would have been an apology for making write ups look like a review and take immediate action to fix. Instead, he talked about how Google optimizes searches and stuff so he "had to do" what he did. Really?

As to Starke, he has no idea if they have refunded everyone. How on earth did he determine that? And why did he sit on their measurements showing sub-par performance and not come to our defense when were getting beat that our measurements were wrong?

And what does he mean they didn't know? If you are producing amplifiers, you need to perform a power sweep before releasing them from manufacturing. How could such a big power shortfall pass QC this way?

If there ever was a company wanted to distance yourself from, is this one. Does he not have any standards here? He will give every company a "second chance?"

As to vilifying, it was the company that did so about me and my testing. What about that?

It just boggles the mind that he is doubling down in this case no less.

Hes promoting a industry, a industry he's clearly knee deep in for good and bad .

He puts the company first and is a appalling apologist.

We don't need that , it's sycophantic and won't help improve standards .

Fortunately we all have a truly independent agent working for us and the betterment of audio standards .

Whats the point of being the king of audio if you can't have a ego , what's a king without egotism haha.

 

[MaxBuck]

I hate to see these ego-driven disputes.

 

[poxymoron]

personaly I am not a fan of Amir (with all respect given), but I am sure a fan of how he gets under the skin of all those hypocrites hahahhaha.
(just to make sure I am not missunderstood: I AM a fan of his contribution to the community)

You're a fan of his contribution.
You're a fan of how he gets under the skin.....
But you're not a fan of him?
(confused emoji)

 

[ryanosaur]

I hate to see these ego-driven disputes.

From any and all sides.

And I feel the same of the followers who decide to make it a bigger problem, from any and all sides.

I'm disappointed when I see any of this on either site, especially when both sites are working toward a common goal. Whatever happened in the past, it would be nice to see everybody involved bury the hatchet and move on.

 

[AudioJester]

Keep up the great work guys!

Gene and others of his ilk dont appreciate the intelligence of their readers. Such posts are what brought me and others to ASR.

 

[dasdoing]

You're a fan of his contribution.
You're a fan of how he gets under the skin.....
But you're not a fan of him?
(confused emoji)

lol...I could explain it, but it really isn't necessary

 

[Rottmannash]

Hes promoting a industry, a industry he's clearly knee deep in for good and bad .

He puts the company first and is a appalling apologist.

We don't need that , it's sycophantic and won't help improve standards .

Fortunately we all have a truly independent agent working for us and the betterment of audio standards .

Whats the point of being the king of audio if you can't have a ego , what's a king without egotism haha.

...he has to pay for that new "smart house" somehow.

 

[anmpr1]

If you are going to run an engineering oriented audio review, you've got to have some standards. Does anyone look at the rank order and say to themselves, "Mine's got a SINAD of 112, and yours is 110. So mine is obviously 2 better." Someone would have to be pretty stupid to think that way.

Let's face it, audio is a hobby for most of us, and as a hobby we gain some enjoyment out of it. There's an emotional factor involved.

The problem for folks like Gene, and Paul, etc. is not that things are ranked according to a measure. It's that measures discount their emotional response to the gear. Those things they attribute to an amplifier are in reality just part of their emotions. All those flowery phrases don't represent anything inside the amp, but rather inside themselves. Admitting that is bad for business. The business they are in. The business of acting as the unofficial advertising arm of 'the industry'.

Look, I have no problem with anyone saying, "You know, when I see those blue meters bounce around, I really enjoy listening to my music more." Or, "Man, take a look at the rosewood grain on the sleeve of my new Accuphase preamp, and the silky feel of those knobs--those make me really happy, increasing my listening enjoyment." I get that completely.

What I don't get, and what I laugh at, is a 'reviewer' telling me that their highly sensitive emotional responses are part of the amplifier circuitry.

Want to tell me that? Ok, go to an audiologist and have your hearing measured. Then post your audiogram. Or take one of the on-line A/B tests. Klippel's is a good place to start. Once your ears have been Klippelized, post results so we can all see how deep is your ability to recognize distortion. Of course they won't do that, because that removes the 'emotional response' away from the perception. And as the audio equivalent of carnival barkers, they can't do that.

Selling the weird along with the wonderful. That's what they do. In small doses, you can laugh at them, and maybe even have a little fun with it. Suspending disbelief and all. However, more than a small amount is the intellectual equivalent of eating too much cotton candy and downing too many Coney Dogs. And, really, no one wants to live at a freak show, 24/7.

 

[lc6]

If you are going to run an engineering oriented audio review, you've got to have some standards. Does anyone look at the rank order and say to themselves, "Mine's got a SINAD of 112, and yours is 110. So mine is obviously 2 better." Someone would have to be pretty stupid to think that way.

Let's face it, audio is a hobby for most of us, and as a hobby we gain some enjoyment out of it. There's an emotional factor involved.

The problem for folks like Gene, and Paul, etc. is not that things are ranked according to a measure. It's that measures discount their emotional response to the gear. Those things they attribute to an amplifier are in reality just part of their emotions. All those flowery phrases don't represent anything inside the amp, but rather inside themselves. Admitting that is bad for business. The business they are in. The business of acting as the unofficial advertising arm of 'the industry'.

Look, I have no problem with anyone saying, "You know, when I see those blue meters bounce around, I really enjoy listening to my music more." Or, "Man, take a look at the rosewood grain on the sleeve of my new Accuphase preamp, and the silky feel of those knobs--those make me really happy, increasing my listening enjoyment." I get that completely.

What I don't get, and what I laugh at, is a 'reviewer' telling me that their highly sensitive emotional responses are part of the amplifier circuitry.

Want to tell me that? Ok, go to an audiologist and have your hearing measured. Then post your audiogram. Or take one of the on-line A/B tests. Klippel's is a good place to start. Once your ears have been Klippelized, post results so we can all see how deep is your ability to recognize distortion. Of course they won't do that, because that removes the 'emotional response' away from the perception. And as the audio equivalent of carnival barkers, they can't do that.

Selling the weird along with the wonderful. That's what they do. In small doses, you can laugh at them, and maybe even have a little fun with it. Suspending disbelief and all. However, more than a small amount is the intellectual equivalent of eating too much cotton candy and downing too many Coney Dogs. And, really, no one wants to live at a freak show, 24/7.

To this, I would add an analogy from another space: financial advice / investment management, where complexity creates a selling point (look how much thought we put into your portfolio of many positions) and assures retention (you cannot get these "outperforming" securities elsewhere, only through me). Add to that a careful selection and even silent switching of performance benchmarks, and you keep cashing in a sizeable percentage of assets under management every year.

By the same token, in audio we see a proliferation of all sorts of expensive devices with dubious performance claims, and the eternal additions and upgrades in search of seemingly unattainable perfection, while the hearing inevitably deteriorates with every year passing.

 

[amirm]

The problem for folks like Gene, and Paul, etc. is not that things are ranked according to a measure.

I want to be fair and comment that in your otherwise excellent post, I don't think it makes sense to equate Gene and Paul. There is a distance between them as far as that kind of conduct.

That doesn't mean Gene doesn't befall the issues you talked about. He does run a business and that business can move him from objectivity that we live in here. This doesn't seem to sit well with him even though it is the reality of it. Tell him that his "review" of what I tested was a fluff piece and he storms out of the room. Yet, even now the fluff write-up is left under the review subsection of his site:

And this lead in:

It is not pretty cool. Yes, there is tiny font saying it doesn't produce the power it is supposed to. But why on earth is this write-up still on the site and classified as a review? Why not take it down altogether? No amplifier missing its power targets by a good mile is "pretty cool" and should be promoted that way.

What is horrible is take all of this on us with his commentary. On what ground is he standing here to make such a case? Members were right and continue to be right per above to complain about him putting business first, and their interest second.

Let's remind everyone what the company said about our work: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ltichannel-amplifier.26939/page-6#post-942170

"Hi Jeff -
Thanks for reaching out. Yeah, we saw the review and are quite disappointed with ASR. Their measurements are misleading and are not the case. All of our published spec's are true and real. Armin’s using some bizarre means of determining peak power output that is constantly running at 1/3 or ¼ of actual power – and it makes no sense to us at all. We're going to publicly release our measurements and the test scripts we used to obtain them so anyone can verify them. We'll have that available in a few weeks time. We'll also have an independent third party perform the same test."

Is there any situation under which Gene would stand shoulder to shoulder with us and customer? Company like that could impugn our work here which eventually was proven to be solid as a rock, yet he still wants to given them a second chance? Is this the kind of conduct we want to reward as industry watchdogs?

Finally, yes, he can review what he wants. But don't go throwing rocks at us when we complain about lack of business ethics and standards....

 

[ryanosaur]

I want to be fair and comment that in your otherwise excellent post, I don't think it makes sense to equate Gene and Paul. There is a distance between them as far as that kind of conduct.

That doesn't mean Gene doesn't befall the issues you talked about. He does run a business and that business can move him from objectivity that we live in here. This doesn't seem to sit well with him even though it is the reality of it. Tell him that his "review" of what I tested was a fluff piece and he storms out of the room. Yet, even now the fluff write-up is left under the review subsection of his site:

View attachment 230213

And this lead in:

View attachment 230214

It is not pretty cool. Yes, there is tiny font saying it doesn't produce the power it is supposed to. But why on earth is this write-up still on the site and classified as a review? Why not take it down altogether? No amplifier missing its power targets by a good mile is "pretty cool" and should be promoted that way.

What is horrible is take all of this on us with his commentary. On what ground is he standing here to make such a case? Members were right and continue to be right per above to complain about him putting business first, and their interest second.

Let's remind everyone what the company said about our work: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ltichannel-amplifier.26939/page-6#post-942170

"Hi Jeff -
Thanks for reaching out. Yeah, we saw the review and are quite disappointed with ASR. Their measurements are misleading and are not the case. All of our published spec's are true and real. Armin’s using some bizarre means of determining peak power output that is constantly running at 1/3 or ¼ of actual power – and it makes no sense to us at all. We're going to publicly release our measurements and the test scripts we used to obtain them so anyone can verify them. We'll have that available in a few weeks time. We'll also have an independent third party perform the same test."

Is there any situation under which Gene would stand shoulder to shoulder with us and customer? Company like that could impugn our work here which eventually was proven to be solid as a rock, yet he still wants to given them a second chance? Is this the kind of conduct we want to reward as industry watchdogs?

Finally, yes, he can review what he wants. But don't go throwing rocks at us when we complain about lack of business ethics and standards....

To be FAIR...
Anybody familiar with AH at all will know this article you point to was not a review, rather a PREVIEW.

Please forgive, I enjoy both sites and am disappointed to see each site continue to dog the other.

I have said as much over there, too, and I know I will again.

I value the AUDIO conversations, not politics, and not petty bickering from the respective peanut galleries.

Just my 2¢.

Thank you, Amir for putting together a great effort and site! Please don't sully it by engaging in or perpetuating a feud.

 

[lc6]

I want to be fair and comment that in your otherwise excellent post, I don't think it makes sense to equate Gene and Paul. There is a distance between them as far as that kind of conduct.
[..]
Is there any situation under which Gene would stand shoulder to shoulder with us and customer? Company like that could impugn our work here which eventually was proven to be solid as a rock, yet he still wants to given them a second chance? Is this the kind of conduct we want to reward as industry watchdogs?

Finally, yes, he can review what he wants. But don't go throwing rocks at us when we complain about lack of business ethics and standards....

Well, AH is considered an Arts & Entertainment - Music website:

On the other hand...

 

[anmpr1]

The world of electric guitars is probably as weird as the world of hi-fi. One of the funniest things I've watched in a while is a video from JHS, the pedal company. Here's a guy who makes his living selling pedals, but he is down to earth, and laughs at the nonsense. On YT (link below) he runs a 'game show' where a musician tries to determine which is which. One comparison pits the 7 thousand dollar Klon v the 30 dollar Amazon 'clone'.

Can you hear a difference, and can you pick out which is the better distortion factory?

Of course this is not what you'd call an ABX test, and the odds of getting it right are pretty loose. 50/50. But it demonstrates just how easy it is to be fooled. Josh Scott (the founder) admits that it's mostly a 'feel' you get with these boxes. What influences you is the thing's history, its price, exclusivity, what it looks like, and so on and so forth. The last thing you are paying for, however, is a unique sound, which can easily be duplicated pretty closely-- at least enough so that its difficult if not impossible to make a reliable determination.

On the other hand, I'll admit that a Klon might make someone play in a more inspired way over a thirty dollar knock off. Just like a McIntosh system might make you enjoy your music more than listening with a Pioneer receiver. Or maybe not. Just don't try to tell them apart with the brands hidden.

 

[lc6]

Over the past several years I have enjoyed both bench tests and reviews at Audioholics as well as the forum which I occasionally popped in on. Gene continues to….
-label ASR and its members as a cult/religion
-intentionally misrepresent Amir’s reviews as only dealing with SINAD (really?)
-referring to those that are members here as followers as if people here believe that is the only important aspect of a device
Adding all this up, I just messaged into have my account deleted. This of course means nothing in the grand scheme of things…

Unfortunately, there is no way to fully delete an account on AH. The owner blasts members posting anything critical of sloppy or incompetent reviews, labels them as @amirm 's cult followers and accuses them of purposeful subversion, then publicly sends them to a "solitary" only to silently ban them, but conveniently retaining all the contents they have contributed to his site. This is one bizarre way of running a business, which must be deteriorating.