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"Stand Subwoofers" like the Genelec W371, Kii BXT, etc. Ideally with DSP & Multi-Drivers

richard12511

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Unfortunately, cardioide dispersion does not help you much in the room's resonating area. Standing waves will build up energy while bouncing around and will ignore the dispersion characteristics because there's no longer any controlled directivity to stop it once the initial wave hits the walls and reflects. In the resonating area the steady-state response is the best metric to use as a visual aid to see what we hear, and in the same steady-state response even Kii and the like will suffer from the same room-behavior as other speakers. Here's a few examples with the Kii;

View attachment 60177
https://www.stereophile.com/content/kii-audio-three-loudspeaker-measurements


View attachment 60178
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/high-end/1048540-kii-three-have-you-heard-them-23.html#post12588247


I have a ton of measurements demonstrating the same thing in my own room with Kii and other speakers. Differences can of course be seen, but they are completely dwarfed by the evilness of the room and could mostly be explained by small differences in placements.
Above about 200 hz the effects will begin to show.

Don't take this as criticism of Kii or any other cardioide speakers because it isn't.
Very interesting.

I had a chance to hear the D&D 8C and Genelec 8351b before purchasing the 8351b. Granted, I heard them in different rooms, but I found the bass of the 8C to be far superior to the 8351. Some of that was no doubt due to the extra extension, but the upper bass frequencies also sounded more neutral. My guess was that a very large part of why the D&Ds bass sounded better was due to the lack of SBIR, which is thanks to the 8c only radiating those frequencies in the forward direction. If what you are saying is true, then that difference I heard was more just due to room interaction luck? I don't have the knowledge to dispute what you're saying, technically, but subjectively, the difference I heard was very real.

FWIW, @napilopez 's in room measurements of the 8c very much show real SBIR benefits in comparison to the other speakers he measured. Below is the image he posted. You can see that the region between 80-160Hz is much improved over typical speakers.

8c Room-min.png
 

richard12511

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Pretty sure that -6 at 23hz figure is in an anechoic chamber... My 8260 is quoted as 29Hz - 20 kHz +/-1dB, but in a room it's flat to about 18hz, and I'll be the W371 can do that at higher SPLs.
Yeah 23Hz is definitely anechoic. No idea how low they'd dig in my actual room. My current subs list -3dB @16Hz, and are flat to ~5Hz in room(and at that point I'm not even sure my mic is accurate). Kinda hard to extrapolate from that how low the W371 would dig though, since my current subs are sealed and drop off much slower below their -3 point.

That would be crazy to listen to though, but I'm curious how GLM would work with the W371 and subwoofers... Seems like you'd want to cross the subs over more around 40hz to allow the w371 to do its directional bass as low as possible before giving up and going to an omni sub.
That's the idea. W371 would give me great flexibility to play around with the crossover to find the spot that measures and sounds the best. So expensive, though :(, so I'm probably a ways away from owning them.

Note: If the w371 is best used as a midbass module to increase SPL... My god, Genelec is a lost cause for anyone who isn't an SPL chaser.
I'm a little confused by this statement. Why is Genelec a lost cause for people who don't listen super loud? I don't agree with that at all. If I didn't care about the sub 20hz content, which is quite rare in music(more common in movies) anyway, then I wouldn't even need the subwoofers. The 8351 + W371 actually has the same bass extension as the Revel Salon2, and I know several people who use that speaker without subs and who are quite satisfied. I've highlighted a key word in your statement. Just because they're "best" used as a midbass modules, that doesn't mean they're not amazing as full range speakers.
 
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stevenswall

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I'm a little confused by this statement. Why is Genelec a lost cause for people who don't listen super loud? I don't agree with that at all. If I didn't care about the sub 20hz content, which is quite rare in music(more common in movies) anyway, then I wouldn't even need the subwoofers. The 8351 + W371 actually has the same bass extension as the Revel Salon2, and I know several people who use that speaker without subs and who are quite satisfied. I've highlighted a key word in your statement. Just because they're "best" used as a midbass modules, that doesn't mean they're not amazing as full range speakers.
Because a dual driver subwoofer of that size should be able to go quite low, unless SPL was prioritized, so if people keep saying it's "not a subwoofer" and they mean that as "It's a thing but subtract the performance of a subwoofer because it shouldn't be used too deep or won't easily reach 20hz and lower" then it sounds like SPL was the goal, which was also the goal with the new 1" drivers in The Ones, none of which go as deep as the original 8260 which has the tightest and most extended frequency response of any speaker they've every made from the measurements I've seen.

Hopefully people mean it's not as sub as in, "it's more than a subwoofer and replaces subwoofers in addition to controlling midbass directivity even better and adding SPL while going audibly deeper than any of The Ones paired with the smaller cheaper subwoofers."

If they are Best used as midbass modules, this means they perform Worse (since they aren't best used as a woofer) when it comes to deep bass, as that's the tradeoff of midbass efficiency typically, and it would mean the "this isn't a sub because it's a thing minus the performance of a sub" is true.

...which goes back to GLM and how it would configure things. If a pair of w371s can go as deep as a pair of their large subwoofers, great. If it's purposefully rolled off and just uses the extra cabinet volume for SPL in the midbass frequencies, then that's what it's for: SPL with controlled directivity.
 

richard12511

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Because a dual driver subwoofer of that size should be able to go quite low, unless SPL was prioritized, so if people keep saying it's "not a subwoofer" and they mean that as "It's a thing but subtract the performance of a subwoofer because it shouldn't be used too deep or won't easily reach 20hz and lower" then it sounds like SPL was the goal, which was also the goal with the new 1" drivers in The Ones, none of which go as deep as the original 8260 which has the tightest and most extended frequency response of any speaker they've every made from the measurements I've seen.

Hopefully people mean it's not as sub as in, "it's more than a subwoofer and replaces subwoofers in addition to controlling midbass directivity even better and adding SPL while going audibly deeper than any of The Ones paired with the smaller cheaper subwoofers."

If they are Best used as midbass modules, this means they perform Worse (since they aren't best used as a woofer) when it comes to deep bass, as that's the tradeoff of midbass efficiency typically, and it would mean the "this isn't a sub because it's a thing minus the performance of a sub" is true.

...which goes back to GLM and how it would configure things. If a pair of w371s can go as deep as a pair of their large subwoofers, great. If it's purposefully rolled off and just uses the extra cabinet volume for SPL in the midbass frequencies, then that's what it's for: SPL with controlled directivity.
Ahh, I get what you're saying now, and in the context of the thread "Stand subwoofers" I agree with you about extension vs spl. I started my audiophile journey chasing 30Hz max spl PA subs. My thinking at the time was "who cares about frequencies you can't even hear". How my view has changed :D. Now extension is basically all I look for in a subwoofer(assuming it doesn't have audible issues). How loud they can play 30Hz is irrelevant to me now, as - due to room gain - I always end up with unlimited headroom in that region anyway.

From the perspective of using them as subwoofers with no external help, I would agree that they would have been better off prioritizing more extension(say 16Hz at least for a $10k sub ;)). That said, I'm glad they didn't, as I would likely never use them as subwoofers anyway, regardless of how deep they dig. The fact that they play up to 500Hz means that they lose by far the biggest advantage a separate subwoofer has over a tower speaker, which is the ability to separate itself from the left and right speaker without consequence. In fact, "stand subwoofer" is a bit of any oxymoron in my view ;), though I understand that sometimes it's necessary.

For my use case, I'm more concerned about how well they can play 50-250Hz. I'll likely be crossing them over to subs somewhere in the 50-120Hz range, so lack of extension isn't really a huge issue in my case. I have my 8351Bs crossing over at 120Hz, as that's the only position and crossover combo I've found that works. Every other crossover and position I've tried(everything from full range to110Hz) has had at least 1 null somewhere in the response. Still experimenting, though.
 

Sancus

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There's a lengthy video about the W371A that was posted here. I have not watched it because I really don't want to hear about the reasons I should buy them :p

I suspect Genelec would state that if you have the kind of budget where you're buying W371As, the 7380A and 7382A are better-suited to high SPL sub-bass and you should be using those.

Considering that the W371A+8351B/8361A combo is designed for SPLs of 120+, I feel like you would probably want a lot more than 12" drivers can offer if you are serious about infrasonic bass.
 

Duke

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My company makes a speaker stand which incorporates a subwoofer and a rear-firing coaxial unit. We call it the "SuperStand" because there just isn't enough hyperbole in high-end audio.

Ideally a pair of SuperStands would be used with two additional small subs that can be positioned independently, resulting in a four-sub distributed array. The subs in the stands obviously do not have much placement flexibility, but the other two help make up for that.
 
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pierre

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richard12511

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There's a lengthy video about the W371A that was posted here. I have not watched it because I really don't want to hear about the reasons I should buy them :p

I suspect Genelec would state that if you have the kind of budget where you're buying W371As, the 7380A and 7382A are better-suited to high SPL sub-bass and you should be using those.

Considering that the W371A+8351B/8361A combo is designed for SPLs of 120+, I feel like you would probably want a lot more than 12" drivers can offer if you are serious about infrasonic bass.
Ha! I’ve watched that video several times :D. It’s a shame, that the W371 is overpriced(at least imo), and especially given the price of the 8351, which I see as a steal for $8k.

I was thinking the other day about the 8351/W371, and how it compares to the Revel Gem2/Salon2. Given that the W371 turns the 8351 into a 4 way tower with the exact same extension as the Salon2, and the 8351 and Gem2 are similarly priced, I think it would be awesome if the 8351+W371 were priced similarly to the Salon2 :D. That would be an amazing value, and comparable to the excellent value that the 8351 is on it’s own. Of course, 8351+W371 has some serious advantages over the Salon2, namely directivity control. But, Salon2 has advantages of its own, like wider dispersion and furniture grade finish.

In the world of high end audio(Magico, B&W, Paradigm, Khama, etc.) though, we’re still talking excellent value, even at current prices ;).
 

Frank Dernie

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If I were to go for a DSP clever speaker the W371 would be top of the list with the 8351.
It is the only one I know of which deals with the bass cleverly by having units at sufficiently different locations for its inbuilt DSP to treat it as 2 seperate bass sources to fill in nulls.
Pity they are so hideous and I would have to sell a lot of stuff to fit them in.
 

Lorenzo74

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Neumann does with the KH870 for the KH420.

However you should refrain from this idea. The best position in a given room for a sub is very seldom identical to the best position for the sats, so either bass suffers or soundstage.
Pls consider BXT is cardioid, does not flare behind the speaker, it solves the problem. Genelec solution is not comparable to Kii Audio.
best
 

Lorenzo74

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LInkwitz was trying to design around the idea of having the sub as a stand

I think somewhere there was a measurement about vibration send up from sub to the main.
Not exactly, the stand is decoupled respect to sub. Of course it might get vibration from the floor.
 
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stevenswall

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Pls consider BXT is cardioid, does not flare behind the speaker, it solves the problem. Genelec solution is not comparable to Kii Audio.
best
The W371 seems comparable to Kii BXT, as both control directivity to 50-60hz or so it seems, though I haven't seen measurements for the kii system.
 
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