Stand Mounts + Subs, How To Implement Ideas

[Sal1950]

I have a 5.2.4 multich system and use Audyssey XT32 plus the optional Editor app to implement the dual subwoofers. The subs are individually auto-eq'd and time adjusted by Audyssey. Then using the Editor app I have experimented with a few custom bass curves plus limiting the correction frequency of monitors. It does a fairly good job of giving me subwoofer integration that I'm happy with.
Currently the stand mounts are crossed over at 80hz and the small overhead Atmos at 150hz.
I've listened using Audy to room eq both full range and limiting to around 500hz and in my rig prefer the sound of full range drc.
I know there a many options that our members have used to implement subwoofers to stand mounted speakers and hoping this thread will spur discussions from members on the various solutions and their ideas on the best approaches.

 

[mitchco]

Thanks Sal. Answering from the split thread:

@mitchco can you fill us in regarding how you combined the LS50 and Rythmik subs? Ron would like to do something similar with his LS50s.

Did you use two different dacs one for subs and one for the LS50s or something else?

I used Audiolense to design a linear phase digital XO and host it in JRiver's Convolution engine. This assumes Ron is into computer audio.... It takes all of 2 minutes to design an XO in Audiolense and after the first measurement, it will become clear where the natural XO is for your room. Readjust the XO and sweep again and usually that is it. Of course, the slopes and width of the XO can be fine tuned, but I have been happy with the out of the box default values. This article where I integrated subs to mains with Audiolense goes into detail - just replace the JBL 4722's with LS50's as that is what I did with the LS50's.

Audiolense can independently adjust frequency and timing of each channel/driver/speaker. This is how I use it with my Lynx Hilo. In the case of the LS50's and dual subs, that is 4 analog outputs from the DAC (I have a total of 6 as I cheat and use the headphone out in my three way). I config the subs so all delays, fliters, XO's are turned off and let Audiolense figure out the time differences. It is accurate and repeatable down to a sample.

You can use Audiolense for the linear phase digital XO, and optionally add time alignment, partial room correction up to Schroeder if desired...

It took me 15 minutes to accomplish the tasks above. If it is your first time, may take longer. Audiolense and Acourate are full featured, powerful DSP FIR filter designers. I would consider them the best DSP software products on the market. Audiolense is easier to use.

On the subject of room correction. Audiolense also corrects over time as one can see in this article, that the group delay can be reduced in the low frequencies and subwoofer article linked above , a maximum phase peak (room reflection) has been cancelled. Finally, I am a proponent of time domain correction and here you can see a little experiment I ran switching between the subs time corrected and not time corrected.

For those that feel that time alignment or excess phase correction or frequency correction occurs at only one mic position need to have a closer look at how the software does it (e.g. superposition) and my book that shows that this is not the case with measurements. And does it without the need for multiple measurements,

Lol this was a bit more than I intended to write, but adding subs to standmounts is a great idea and this is one of the ways to get the best "technical" performance possible integrating subs with standmounts.

Have fun!

 

[Ron Texas]

Elegant, but the software is 390 euros and I would need a second DAC. It appears the Lynx is capable of processing two separate signal paths. My system is computer playback only.

I wonder how this would work: https://www.minidsp.com/products/dirac-series/ddrc-24 . There is also the option to run LS50's full range since their output drops at 24 db/octave from 52 hz subject to modification with the ports plugged. It will have to wait until I get home.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Elegant, but the software is 390 euros and I would need a second DAC. It appears the Lynx is capable of processing two separate signal paths. My system is computer playback only.

I wonder how this would work: https://www.minidsp.com/products/dirac-series/ddrc-24 . There is also the option to run LS50's full range since their output drops at 24 db/octave from 52 hz subject to modification with the ports plugged. It will have to wait until I get home.

You might also look at subs that do both parts of the cross over. JBL lsr310 for instance takes XLR in and outputs XLR to the main speakers rolled off at your choice of frequencies. Now I've used a Rythmik and the JBL isn't as good though not bad.

Also Shure makes some XLR plugs that roll of the Low end. Mainly for microphone use so the impedance of most amps would alter the results. I don't know if FMods make any balanced ones or not. They make some in RCA.

@RayDunzl might know if the minidsp will do what you need.

 

[Ron Texas]

My decision tree is either do nothing or get a Hypex amp and probably not roll off the LS50's or look for a solution for the roll off later. Step one is to see how the LS50's sound with current hardware without using the DSP in the 1502 (which is always active). I have some sub position experiments I want to try. They are spots I used earlier when I didn't fully understand how the phase control on the sub changed the frequency response.

 

[kamel2500]

I have a 5.2.4 multich system eAudacity Find My iPhone Origin and use Audyssey XT32 plus the optional Editor app to implement the dual subwoofers. The subs are individually auto-eq'd and time adjusted by Audyssey. Then using the Editor app I have experimented with a few custom bass curves plus limiting the correction frequency of monitors. It does a fairly good job of giving me subwoofer integration that I'm happy with.
Currently the stand mounts are crossed over at 80hz and the small overhead Atmos at 150hz.
I've listened using Audy to room eq both full range and limiting to around 500hz and in my rig prefer the sound of full range drc.
I know there a many options that our members have used to implement subwoofers to stand mounted speakers and hoping this thread will spur discussions from members on the various solutions and their ideas on the best approaches.

My choice tree is either do nothing or get a Hypex amp and presumably not move off the LS50's or search for an answer for the move off later. Stage one is to perceive how the LS50's sound with current equipment without utilizing the DSP in the 1502 (which is constantly dynamic). I have some sub position tests I need to attempt. They are spots I utilized before when I didn't completely see how the stage control on the sub changed the recurrence reaction.

 

[Willem]

I am a happy user of a DSpeaker Antimode 8033 dsp room eq. My main speakers are Quad 2805 electrostats, and as dipoles they do not suffer too badly from room modes. When I added a B&W PV1d subwoofer I had more bass, but the sound was woolly (the electrostats still playing full range). I reckoned that unlike the Quads, the sub was exciting room modes, making for a less than perfect integration with the clean electrostats. So after some reading I bought the Antimode and have been very pleased. It is cheap, easy to set up, and the sonic improvement was bigger than any upgrade I ever made since buying my first CD player early in the 1980's. Bass is much tighter, and seems to only come from the main speakers. It has also persuaded me that further gains should be possible by addding a second sub, so I am saving up for one. I must add that I am crossing over at only 33 Hz with a 4th order slope.
I also experimented with the small Harbeth P3ESR speakers from my secondary system but used in the same large room as my main system, and crossed over at 45 Hz and 2nd order slope. Here to, integration was excellent. The illusion of deep bass seemingly coming out of such small speakers was uncanny. Integration was excellent and the only limitation was that even with the support of the sub such small monitor speakers could not quite fill such a large room.

 

[Fone]

I found that measuring the room response was incredibly helpful in proper positioning of monitors & subs. It is also an excellent vocational learning experience. Fun and essentially free of charge.

For sure, there is a great case for running separate amps and crossovers for each individual speaker driver. It can get expensive but there are some dirt-cheap amps you can experiment with these days. Doing this in the digital domain could provide extreme flexibility to set up your crossovers, EQ, time alignment, room compensation, driver compensation, etc. I have no experience with such modern systems so can't comment on how well they are executed. Regardless, we see the potential with modern powered monitors that can provide impressive price/value with cheap parts.
______

My system is very simple.

The main listening room is rather small, odd-shaped and has two stand-mounted passive monitors and a large active sub. After a few months of measurements and shifting gear around, I was able to remove all software and hardware EQ boxes. The sub has a low pass switch at 70Hz (although measured impact in my room is closer to 60Hz). No high pass filter in the monitors (other than the onboard passive crossover network).

Really happy with sound. It is more transparent to my ears with proper placement and "no EQ". I attribute the good sound to:

- setting concrete audio goals (vs. simply spending a lot of money on gear, etc.)

- lots of measurements,

- moving around gear/furniture,

- luck that monitors/sub/room work together fine

I used the free REW software and a cheap Behringer mic to measure each individual monitor, the sub, the monitors combined, the monitors/sub combined. In several different positions. I with auto & manual EQ to get a vocational understanding of the room and how the slightest repositioning of speakers or listener can have drastic changes. Very helpful for integrating sub. You will see how sensitive a tiny change in listening position is and maybe rethink EQ, particularly of higher frequencies.

There is a Harman whitepaper advocating multiple subs; their pitch seems reasonable albeit they are trying to sell equipment so the "research" is rather self-serving. The Russian "Romy the Cat" advocates for stereo subs as well; his DIY system is excellent and his "GoodSoundClub" blog is well worth a visit (a somewhat different approach to high fidelity than ASR has but I think his system speaks for itself).

The REW forums can be quite helpful to get up the learning curve. There are cases for using only very little bass EQ. And never using EQ to boost. And using positioning as a primary method for proper EQ.

There is the crawl around method for sub placement. Put the sub in your listening spot. Crawl around the room and look for the places where the "volume" is loudest. Those might be good places to try moving the sub.

You should be very sensitive to time alignment with your monitors and sub. I suspect most speakers are not time aligned so there's that. The LS50s have that going for them.

There is the fuzzy concept of a "house curve", a concept detailed on the GoodSoundClub also. The idea is that razor flat sub FQ response sounds dull, and that lower FQ should be somewhat boosted. I found that issue in my room.

Integrating the sub was a root canal. The REW measurements and house curve helped. One engineer told me to try stuffing the monitor vents with socks; that didn't work for my room but is an easy manual EQ tweak worth trying. Dropping the sub "volume" dial just a bit so that it "disappeared" was the final step in my room.

Of course you have to battle the so-called Fletcher Munson curve. Think of the loudness button on old audio gear that boosted some lower frequencies when you listened to lower "volumes." That is a cool effect and really makes music come alive at nighttime listening volumes. The curves are dynamic and take some time to estimate for your ears and room but there are images on the internet to get you started. This also implies you need less bass at higher volumes.

Finally, the studio monitors sounded much better several feet away from the back wall. Not too close together, not too far apart. You just need to experiment with placement of gear and furniture. A rug. Some curtains. Some book shelves.

Wrote too much also lol