Stand-mounted vs. Floorstanding

[Siwel]

I have no argument against integrating subwoofers. The theory is certainly sound, and insofar as someone achieves beautiful integration in practice, that's great. But I've heard enough subwoofer set ups to infer that integration...to the degree I find good enough...is not easy to achieve.
And then the results, in the sense of the user's subjective experience, are subjectively evaluated. A bass node or resonance may look bad in objective measurements, but may either be subjectively less so, or may be excited only occasionally given the musical material, and not be a "big deal" for a user. So we may disagree on "how much better" subs make one or another system sound.

I plan to give my subs another whirl, but it's more out of interest and playing with the system, vs feeling any dramatic need for "more/better" bass.

Correct integration is not theoretical. Most consumers don't actually integrate their subs. Many of the lesser products on the market don't even allow for proper calibration. Folks add subs without proper crossovers, or they trust the low pass filter to do it all, which it usually can't. Others don't know the difference between quantity and quality. Plenty of subs don't have the features they need to get a truly smooth handoff in the first place. I agree that experience suggests there are more poorly implemented attempts than proper ones but that isn't an argument against subs. It's an argument for education if one is engaged....or pro setup if one isn't.

There is one group of settings for proper phase and level alignment at any given frequency. This is not a matter of taste, it's a question of good engineering. It's a poor workman who blames the tools when it is the skill that's lacking as is often the case. It's not that complicated to accomplish a good setup but few consumers know how, have the interest or have taken the time to learn. Many don't even know what good bass sounds like as they have never heard it.

Of course not everybody needs a sub. Some rooms simply won't support smooth or extended LF energy as built. In other situations, domestic considerations rule. Clearly excellent gear is useless in the hands of somebody who is guessing what the time and level relationships should be between the speaker elements. These are definable, not technically arguable criteria. Good performance requires precise calibrations since ideally, you are creating a complete crossover, not just adjusting loudness. This is like tuning a precision motor. There are logical steps to be taken in a specific order if things are to be made better rather than worse.

You have to know what the rules are and only then can you break them successfully. I find subs highly beneficial in my system, which includes highly regarded full range speakers. Adding them and a real crossover advanced my system considerably. It's an order of magnitude harder to get these results by guessing. This is not even an argument between designers. You won't find many engineers admitting "they just guessed." Even if they didn't use the best tools and techniques at their disposal, you can be sure they aren't going to admit it.

 

[MattHooper]

^^^ Yes, which all goes to the point I was making. The theory is sound. In practice mostly achievable IF you go to the trouble to achieve it. But the effort/cost and other variables vs pay-off is up to the subjective assessment of the individual.

 

[Bear123]

I'm afraid a sentence like that comes off as sort of audiophile-virtue signaling: "Those of US who use subwoofers care about sound quality; by implication those without subwoofers don't."

I'm pretty sure all of us here care about sound quality.

One thing I would like to clarify is that when I say most of us are concerned about sound quality, I am most certainly including 2 channel folks who don't use subs. Wasn't at all meant to disparage those who don't have/use subs, or imply those without subs aren't concerned with sound quality. I apologize if it came across that way. More accurately, what I was trying to say is: since we are all concerned with sound quality, most folks should be using dual subs.

I agree that subjectively, its quite easy to be very happy with the sound of two speakers in a room without subs. However, we can also say that many folks with a sound bar are really happy with their sound. Almost all measurements I have seen of two speakers in a room without subs shows a horribly inaccurate frequency response below 300 Hz. Once in a while, you see someone who has put a lot of time an effort into placing the speakers half way out into the room with a single seat placed in the optimal place to attempt to get one exact location with a non horrible response.

Are lots of people happy with two tower speakers and a bad response? Certainly. But a pair of subs and eq with +/- 2 dB response below 300 Hz will most certainly objectively and subjectively sound much better to almost anyone. I don't find it extraordinarily difficult to accomplish this, and it doesn't take endless fiddling and adjustment to get close to right, which is much better than the train wreck response resulting from two speakers.

Honestly, a quick and dirty half hour tops with Audyseey XT32/Sub Eq HT resulted in this average response across my sectional with zero tweaking:

For comparison, look at the in room response of the KEF R3 posted by Amir. Or my own tower speaker that measures very neutral anechoic:

I suspect this is what most people's in room responses look like. Not saying there aren't exceptions. But the first graph posted is *extremely* easy to accomplish, and will definitely sound drastically better than the second graph.

 

[Xulonn]

One small audiophile segment that has been ignored by both the mainstream and the specialty audio industry, is the new breed of "no preamp and no AV receiver" luddite 2-channel stereo people like me - who want to use a subwoofer. I have no component with a "Sub" or "LFE" out connection. I use a Topping DX7s in lieu of a preamp with its volume control, multiple digital inputs (I only use one - USB from my "A/V PC") and dual XLR plus RCA line-level outputs. I also may get a miniDSP OpenDRC-DI digital only DSP unit. So what is the best way to integrate a subwoofer?

Fortunately, my Topping DX7s (like the RME ADI-2 and some other DACs) have both XLR and RCA out connections that are said to be separately buffered. This means that both can be used simultaneously, allowing me to continue to use XLR out to my power amplifier, and RCA out to a sub, with level and crossover (low pass filter) controls on the subwoofer. To add a high-pass to the XLR out, I believe that I can put a filter in-line with the DAC>amp line-level interconnects, being careful to match the slope of the subwoofer crossover and the input impedance of the amplifier. Although the high-pass would be fixed at 70-80 Hz, the subwoofer low-pass would be variable, so I could hopefully use DRC to smooth out any dips or humps at the separated "crossover" (low pass on sub and high-pass on mains).

The only issue I see with my idea is that the miniDSP OpenDRC-DI does not accept USB data, so I would be forced to use the Toslink optical out from my source- an older Intel NUC5CPYB mini-computer.

Is my planning and logic sound? (Pun intended.)

 

[Sancus]

One small audiophile segment that has been ignored by both the mainstream and the specialty audio industry, is the new breed of "no preamp and no AV receiver" luddite 2-channel stereo people like me - who want to use a subwoofer. I have no component with a "Sub" or "LFE" out connection. I use a Topping DX7s in lieu of a preamp with its volume control, multiple digital inputs (I only use one - USB from my "A/V PC") and dual XLR plus RCA line-level outputs. I also may get a miniDSP OpenDRC-DI digital only DSP unit. So what is the best way to integrate a subwoofer?

I think you can use any miniDSP product with more than 2 outputs to integrate a sub. There's guides on their site. Maybe you want to use the balanced 2x4 since you have XLR outs. The wiring is a little annoying because I guess it uses some connectors from car audio. Since your DAC is only 2-channel, I think you have to add the sub downstream from it.

You already have a setup, so this doesn't directly apply, but I think for anyone doing a 2-channel setup from scratch that wants subwoofers, the miniDSP SHD has everything you need and even measures quite well. I do think doing your streaming/dac/dirac all in one box is the path of least resistance for most people. It is a somewhat expensive box, but given all it does, not unreasonable.

 

[Juhazi]

Here measurements of a 4-way floorstander (diy), mic at fixed spot, L and R alone and together. No optimization or room EQ used.
Some of reflections and modes get smoother, same applies for 2 subs. Three or more subs is much better with clever placement.

 

[QMuse]

One small audiophile segment that has been ignored by both the mainstream and the specialty audio industry, is the new breed of "no preamp and no AV receiver" luddite 2-channel stereo people like me - who want to use a subwoofer. I have no component with a "Sub" or "LFE" out connection. I use a Topping DX7s in lieu of a preamp with its volume control, multiple digital inputs (I only use one - USB from my "A/V PC") and dual XLR plus RCA line-level outputs. I also may get a miniDSP OpenDRC-DI digital only DSP unit. So what is the best way to integrate a subwoofer?

Fortunately, my Topping DX7s (like the RME ADI-2 and some other DACs) have both XLR and RCA out connections that are said to be separately buffered. This means that both can be used simultaneously, allowing me to continue to use XLR out to my power amplifier, and RCA out to a sub, with level and crossover (low pass filter) controls on the subwoofer. To add a high-pass to the XLR out, I believe that I can put a filter in-line with the DAC>amp line-level interconnects, being careful to match the slope of the subwoofer crossover and the input impedance of the amplifier. Although the high-pass would be fixed at 70-80 Hz, the subwoofer low-pass would be variable, so I could hopefully use DRC to smooth out any dips or humps at the separated "crossover" (low pass on sub and high-pass on mains).

The only issue I see with my idea is that the miniDSP OpenDRC-DI does not accept USB data, so I would be forced to use the Toslink optical out from my source- an older Intel NUC5CPYB mini-computer.

Is my planning and logic sound? (Pun intended.)

From what I can tell, it is.

The only issue I see with my idea is that the miniDSP OpenDRC-DI does not accept USB data, so I would be forced to use the Toslink optical out from my source- an older Intel NUC5CPYB mini-computer.

Is that really an issue?

 

[Xulonn]

Is that really an issue?

For 2.1 stereo? Probably not - a no grounding issues to worry about!

 

[Rick Sykora]

It does! I can get away with janky shit like this as my work in progress makes...progress.

View attachment 54604

The bed risers under the hanging legs just give it that extra something, I know...

My SO lets me get away with the TV on the hearth! Works better than the wall mount up top. During the holidays, we run a fireplace app (with sound) and a space heater. When the room is dark, looks pretty real.

As for the OP, prefer freestanding if you have space for them. It is the subwoofers that take up more space than I currently have. The next house will be a downsize and the subwoofers will likely go. My wife will not shed any tears.

 

[Sal1950]

It is the subwoofers that take up more space than I currently have. The next house will be a downsize and the subwoofers will likely go.

If they do, I'd bet even money they won't be gone for long. You'll miss them too much.

 

[kach22i]

Image in this link explains a lot for me.

3rd image down of PA speaker on tripod stand.

https://www.presonus.com/learn/technical-articles/configure-your-pa

 

[trog69]

To the extent you have to put them on a stand, you don't save any space with bookshelf speakers.

I kind of have the best of both worlds with the ADS L910's. On their stands they have a pretty large footprint, though. No room-savings at all.

 

[richard12511]

Yes, subwoofer advocates have been saying this for years and years so I'm aware of the arguments. I've also heard many systems with subwoofers (by people who have put a lot of effort in to the set up) and have never come home to my own system feeling I really need subs because my system just doesn't sound good compared to that system. In fact I tend to be made even happier with my system, which usually sounds to me more effortlessly coherent and integrated top to bottom.

I also went down the sub "rabbit hold" and bought JL 110E subs and the JL crossover. I have not, at this point (which is preliminary) felt the subs added enough to my system to justify the added expense, cables, speakers, hassle, and lowered aesthetics (I frankly hate subwoofers, aesthetically). I haven't fully decided not to use them as I could devote more time to integrating them even better. But that's one of the off-putting issues I (and others) have with subwoofers. When you read the literature from subwoofer advocates, it's amazing how much time and effort they have often put in to dialing in their subs to finally get perfect integration and room response. Tweak, tweak, tweak...it rarely seems to end.

I'm just not that motivated because the sound without subwoofers in my system is so damned good.




I'm afraid a sentence like that comes off as sort of audiophile-virtue signaling: "Those of US who use subwoofers care about sound quality; by implication those without subwoofers don't."

I'm pretty sure all of us here care about sound quality. I think I have an inkling myself. ;-) I find my system to have beautiful, smooth, evenly balanced sound, tight bass, the whole shebang. Could it be even better? Sure, few systems couldn't be improved to some degree, at least objectively. But is it "low fidelity" sound owned by someon who has no focus on sound quality? Not by a long shot. It sounds fantastic (not just in my opinion, but in that of a number of people who work in pro sound - I'm in the industry - who have heard the system).



Sure. For you. (Note "much better sound quality" has a subjective valuation component).

I have no argument against integrating subwoofers. The theory is certainly sound, and insofar as someone achieves beautiful integration in practice, that's great. But I've heard enough subwoofer set ups to infer that integration...to the degree I find good enough...is not easy to achieve.
And then the results, in the sense of the user's subjective experience, are subjectively evaluated. A bass node or resonance may look bad in objective measurements, but may either be subjectively less so, or may be excited only occasionally given the musical material, and not be a "big deal" for a user. So we may disagree on "how much better" subs make one or another system sound.

I plan to give my subs another whirl, but it's more out of interest and playing with the system, vs feeling any dramatic need for "more/better" bass.

I agree with this perspective. While it's true that towers without subs can never really as good as a system with subs, I do think it's possible in some rooms to get "close enough" to where it's just not worth the extra hassle/cost. Don't you have MBLs?

As for stand mount vs tower. I'm more inclined to go with towers due to them being more stable, and also allowing more flexibility with crossover point.

 

[richard12511]

I've never understood the attraction of stand mounts except for the possibility of putting them on bookshelves for non-critical applications.

There's no advantage I can think of whatsoever.

As to using subwoofers, that's also something I've never understood. Rather than have separate subs, just get bigger mains! The only benefit of subs I can think of is using them as stands for other wise good standmounts, and using some sort of DSP to remove the LF from the standmounts to improve their power handling and distortion.....again, just get bigger mains.

I accept that HT applications may be different, but then I've never concerned myself with explosions in HiFi.

S

Subs allow you to have better sound quality with regards to bass, due to bass being heavily influenced by placement. Even if a tower can dig as deep, the sound quality won't be as good due to placement restrictions.

 

[MattHooper]

I agree with this perspective. While it's true that towers without subs can never really as good as a system with subs, I do think it's possible in some rooms to get "close enough" to where it's just not worth the extra hassle/cost. Don't you have MBLs?

I sold my MBLs to help afford purchasing a pair of Joseph Audio Perspective speakers. The MBLs were fun as heck and very hard to let go, but overall I'm enjoying the floor standing Perspectives more (and they produce such deep, impactful and even-sounding bass for their size subwoofers rarely cross my mind).