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Springs Under My Speakers: What's Happening?

Thomas_A

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I posted a new thread with measurements here:

 

Jukebox

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Q Acoustics Concept 300 uses a similar spring loaded decoupling base system that you mount on their dedicated Tensegrity Stand

isolation-base_0.jpg
q-acoustics_concept-300_black_rosewood_isolation_base_close_2_detail.jpg
 

steve59

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isoacoustics is charging a small fortune on their footers, They look high quality and might be worth the cost, but It would be great to see some competition in this area.
 

Thomas_A

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isoacoustics is charging a small fortune on their footers, They look high quality and might be worth the cost, but It would be great to see some competition in this area.
Sonic Design damping feet.
 
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MattHooper

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Hey folks,

I figured I'd update my trials and travails on the speaker isolation front.

Sorry, as before no measurements, so with that caveat, if anyone is still here...:)....

For a long time my Thiel 2.7s have, in my room, exhibited a little extra emphasis in the upper bass area - likely I think a room node. It never bothered me much, as it didn't raise it's head too often, and I loved everything about the speakers. I ended up shifting my speakers/listening position for even more immersion - a bit closer - and I think I ended up in a place where the room lift was getting a little more emphasized, so I was noticing the bass hump on more material. My hunch is that I ran in to the old problem that sends many to using subwoofers - the spot where midrange and higher frequencies may sound great may not be the best spot for bass - hence, crossing over to a subwoofer and placing subs and the main speakers where each will sound most smooth.

This actually hasn't been much of an issue with all the different large and small speakers in my room. I just seem to have hit a spot where it did get a bit much in this case.

Anyway...I'd already gone the subwoofer route a while back - two subs, with a JL Audio CR1 crossover, room correction etc. I ended up getting a bit more even sound, but ultimately it changed the tone enough to turn me off, and my speakers also sounded more lively and punchy without the subwoofers. Sold it all.

I did try some PrimeAcoustics "London bass traps" - I'm very limited for where those can go - managed to get a couple in one corner, but that wasn't enough to do anything notable.

I also tried some PrimAcoustics HF Recoil Stablizers under the Thiels. They are a foam-based absorber/decoupling system. They didn't seem to do much for the sound either way - not particularly tighter or compelling.

Going back to the spring isolation footers mentioned earlier in the thread: As I mentioned they certainly had tightened up the sound and made the speakers "disappear" more as sound sources. But it also left the sound more lightweight, more electrostatic-like, less "room feel" and drive. This was true to some extent with the more expensive spring-based isolation I tried from Townshend Audio. (Isolation bars).

With the speakers sitting directly on the carpet over the wood floor, as usual, I could feel the music going right through my listening seat, which I think helped alter the perception of the sound, making it seem more solid and dynamic.

So it seems like I wanted SOME decoupling but not "too much."

This got me thinking again about the Isoacoustic Gaia footers.

These are obviously very popular but I hadn't gone that route mainly because I had some Isoacoustic pucks left over from testing isolation for my Turntable isolation bass. When I'd measured (vibration measuring app) sound transfer, I found the Townshend spring footers to offer significantly more isolation/decoupling effect than the Isoacoustic pucks. And I'd tried those pucks under one of my speakers, didn't think much.

But recently I thought, what the heck, Isoacoustics has a 30 day return policy. Maybe I'll try the Gaias which are purpose-built for speakers.
So I ordered some which arrived last week.

Next post: my listening results.
 
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MattHooper

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So I've had the Isoacoustic Gaia 2 footers attached under my Thiel speakers (sitting on the isoacoustic carpet spikes) for several days and the results...subjectively...

Well, wuddya know! They do indeed seem to split the difference between the full decoupling of the spring footers and no footers!

The bass tightened up and became more routinely "holographic." By that I mean, when the bass would get a bit obnoxious with certain notes previously, it was like the bass would seem to come more from the speakers while sort of "portruding out" in to the room to my ears. But with the Gaia the bass seems routinely tighter - that added bass warmth being much more rare and when I can hear some of that slight bass emphasis it is still tighter than before, and the bass instrument still stays in a focused spot in the soundstage. It doesn't blur and overwhelm and "jump out" at me.

That was really neato! It has, so far, seemed to be just about a perfect fix in that regard - bass is snappy, rich, dense, yet tonal and controlled.

There was also the effect of the speakers "disappearing" more, soundstaging and imaging like the speakers are not producing the sound at all, especially to the sides of the soundstage. Overall the sound seems to be a bit more clear/clean and 3 dimensional. That's nice too!

It DID change the tone of the sound slightly, though - a bit less warm and rich. I'll have to see if I get along with that over time. Also, there is a bit less room feel/density vs the speakers on the floor. But still, the sound doesn't have that weightless quality like when they are on springs.

However, I have a secret weapon for getting more of that "density" back to the sound. I have a Curved Diffusor from AcousticGeometry:


I originally tried it for side wall diffusion, but felt it hardened the sound a bit too much. But recently I discovered that if I place the Diffusor just behind my Thiel speakers, sitting atop or up against my home theater's center channel speaker, it adds some texture and density to the sound - drum snares, trumpets, bongos etc pop out with more vivid palpability and realism. So taking the greater clarity and dimensionality given by the Gaia footers, then adjusting the sound a bit with the Diffusor, the combo has produced some pretty breathtaking sound! I get walk-in-to-it soundscapes populated by thick, textured, dense voices and instruments! I'm having fun!

YMMV....:)
 

dshreter

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Hey folks,

I figured I'd update my trials and travails on the speaker isolation front.

Sorry, as before no measurements, so with that caveat, if anyone is still here...:)....

For a long time my Thiel 2.7s have, in my room, exhibited a little extra emphasis in the upper bass area - likely I think a room node. It never bothered me much, as it didn't raise it's head too often, and I loved everything about the speakers. I ended up shifting my speakers/listening position for even more immersion - a bit closer - and I think I ended up in a place where the room lift was getting a little more emphasized, so I was noticing the bass hump on more material. My hunch is that I ran in to the old problem that sends many to using subwoofers - the spot where midrange and higher frequencies may sound great may not be the best spot for bass - hence, crossing over to a subwoofer and placing subs and the main speakers where each will sound most smooth.

This actually hasn't been much of an issue with all the different large and small speakers in my room. I just seem to have hit a spot where it did get a bit much in this case.

Anyway...I'd already gone the subwoofer route a while back - two subs, with a JL Audio CR1 crossover, room correction etc. I ended up getting a bit more even sound, but ultimately it changed the tone enough to turn me off, and my speakers also sounded more lively and punchy without the subwoofers. Sold it all.

I did try some PrimeAcoustics "London bass traps" - I'm very limited for where those can go - managed to get a couple in one corner, but that wasn't enough to do anything notable.

I also tried some PrimAcoustics HF Recoil Stablizers under the Thiels. They are a foam-based absorber/decoupling system. They didn't seem to do much for the sound either way - not particularly tighter or compelling.

Going back to the spring isolation footers mentioned earlier in the thread: As I mentioned they certainly had tightened up the sound and made the speakers "disappear" more as sound sources. But it also left the sound more lightweight, more electrostatic-like, less "room feel" and drive. This was true to some extent with the more expensive spring-based isolation I tried from Townshend Audio. (Isolation bars).

With the speakers sitting directly on the carpet over the wood floor, as usual, I could feel the music going right through my listening seat, which I think helped alter the perception of the sound, making it seem more solid and dynamic.

So it seems like I wanted SOME decoupling but not "too much."

This got me thinking again about the Isoacoustic Gaia footers.

These are obviously very popular but I hadn't gone that route mainly because I had some Isoacoustic pucks left over from testing isolation for my Turntable isolation bass. When I'd measured (vibration measuring app) sound transfer, I found the Townshend spring footers to offer significantly more isolation/decoupling effect than the Isoacoustic pucks. And I'd tried those pucks under one of my speakers, didn't think much.

But recently I thought, what the heck, Isoacoustics has a 30 day return policy. Maybe I'll try the Gaias which are purpose-built for speakers.
So I ordered some which arrived last week.

Next post: my listening results.
Do you not have measurements available to post, or are you exploring all of this without the aid of measurements? If it’s the latter, is there a particular reason?
 

fpitas

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For the big DIY speakers I helped a friend make, we glued carpet samples under them as quick and dirty isolation. His wife didn't want them scratching the wood floor, also. Win-win.
 
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MattHooper

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Do you not have measurements available to post, or are you exploring all of this without the aid of measurements? If it’s the latter, is there a particular reason?

I think the first thing is I'm just not a pocket-protractor type to begin with. It's certainly not that I think measurements aren't valuable! It's just that I'm not drawn to, nor terribly interested in doing measurements myself. At least in this regard. And I've never personally felt a need to do measurements - my room was designed with an acoustician and most speakers plop right in there and sound great, including the Thiels over all these years.

I just ran in to this slight issue more recently. I don't have room measurement equipment, and sold my DSpeaker anti-mode along with my subwoofers. In fact one of the reasons I sold the subwoofer/crossover/room EQ is I didn't care for all the fiddling and complexity.

So, sorry, I don't have any measurements for you.
 

fpitas

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Unless you are lucky enough to have a well-damped non-resonant floor, isolation can only be a good thing. Unless you just want to involve your floor in sound reproduction.
 
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MattHooper

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Unless you are lucky enough to have a well-damped non-resonant floor, isolation can only be a good thing. Unless you just want to involve your floor in sound reproduction.

I do quite like the involvement of the room. It's not just that I can feel the music more - it seems to slightly alter the perception of the sound in some ways I like. I think it was either a speaker designer (Paul Barton?) or someone here who said some people just like the effect that the vibrations have on the sound - you are getting a sort of secondary sensation-of-the-sound effect slightly delayed, through your body, which I guess the brain meshes with the speaker's direct sound to sort of thicken things up a bit.

But...I also enjoy a lack of muddiness in the sound. So it's a balancing act, for me.
 

fpitas

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I do quite like the involvement of the room. It's not just that I can feel the music more - it seems to slightly alter the perception of the sound in some ways I like. I think it was either a speaker designer (Paul Barton?) or someone here who said some people just like the effect that the vibrations have on the sound - you are getting a sort of secondary sensation-of-the-sound effect slightly delayed, through your body, which I guess the brain meshes with the speaker's direct sound to sort of thicken things up a bit.
I still get the impact of bass, even though my speakers are very isolated with outrigger feet. Just not through the floor ;)
 

ROOSKIE

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I still get the impact of bass, even though my speakers are very isolated with outrigger feet. Just not through the floor ;)
Well it is common in a live music performance to have room awareness and room interaction.
I personally like it in the right dose. I like some sense of my room.
It is fine to me if someone wants to completely remove the room, just a different preference.
The studies I am familiar with demonstrated a small majority of listeners preferred playback in a typical room vs a heavily treated one. I'd suspect some similarly with vibrations in the floor and walls.
Who knows. Again another thing it would be fun to blind test.

For the big DIY speakers I helped a friend make, we glued carpet samples under them as quick and dirty isolation. His wife didn't want them scratching the wood floor, also. Win-win.
I use yoga blocks. In my situation I don't think carpet would do it. (110 year old suspended wood floor)
The blocks work great(4 per sub), they look cool to me and my GF but others might wince.


So I've had the Isoacoustic Gaia 2 footers attached under my Thiel speakers (sitting on the isoacoustic carpet spikes) for several days and the results...subjectively...

Well, wuddya know! They do indeed seem to split the difference between the full decoupling of the spring footers and no footers!

The bass tightened up and became more routinely "holographic." By that I mean, when the bass would get a bit obnoxious with certain notes previously, it was like the bass would seem to come more from the speakers while sort of "portruding out" in to the room to my ears. But with the Gaia the bass seems routinely tighter - that added bass warmth being much more rare and when I can hear some of that slight bass emphasis it is still tighter than before, and the bass instrument still stays in a focused spot in the soundstage. It doesn't blur and overwhelm and "jump out" at me.

That was really neato! It has, so far, seemed to be just about a perfect fix in that regard - bass is snappy, rich, dense, yet tonal and controlled.

There was also the effect of the speakers "disappearing" more, soundstaging and imaging like the speakers are not producing the sound at all, especially to the sides of the soundstage. Overall the sound seems to be a bit more clear/clean and 3 dimensional. That's nice too!

It DID change the tone of the sound slightly, though - a bit less warm and rich. I'll have to see if I get along with that over time. Also, there is a bit less room feel/density vs the speakers on the floor. But still, the sound doesn't have that weightless quality like when they are on springs.

However, I have a secret weapon for getting more of that "density" back to the sound. I have a Curved Diffusor from AcousticGeometry:


I originally tried it for side wall diffusion, but felt it hardened the sound a bit too much. But recently I discovered that if I place the Diffusor just behind my Thiel speakers, sitting atop or up against my home theater's center channel speaker, it adds some texture and density to the sound - drum snares, trumpets, bongos etc pop out with more vivid palpability and realism. So taking the greater clarity and dimensionality given by the Gaia footers, then adjusting the sound a bit with the Diffusor, the combo has produced some pretty breathtaking sound! I get walk-in-to-it soundscapes populated by thick, textured, dense voices and instruments! I'm having fun!

YMMV....:)
Glad you are having fun.
Those feet look cool.
I use just use the 'supply house's cork&rubber sandwiches or the blue and rubber sandwiches.
They are very inexpensive and work extremely well in my experience as a moderate isolation solution. They will let some energy through but not much. Even if you hate the look I'd be very curious what you think of the sound.
I'd bet in blind test these 2 products sound identical.
Unfortunately there is a rubber odor.

 
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fpitas

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Well it is common in a live music performance to have room awareness and room interaction.
I personally like it in the right dose. I like some sense of my room.
It is fine to me if someone wants to completely remove the room, just a different preference.
The studies I am familiar with demonstrated a small majority of listeners preferred playback in a typical room vs a heavily treated one. I'd suspect some similarly with vibrations in the floor and walls.
Who knows. Again another thing it would be fun to blind test.
In a live performance though, the room with all its resonances is an integral part of the music. Not sure I want that at home, but each to his own.
 
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MattHooper

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I still get the impact of bass, even though my speakers are very isolated with outrigger feet. Just not through the floor ;)

That's cool. Even with the Gaia footers installed, I do indeed experience some of that nice bass warmth - the rolling over me sensation of an orchestra engaging the lower registers, deep bass synth notes, etc. But with the speakers directly on the floor I sort of always felt the bass on most tracks. With these I occaisionally crank it a bit more to get a sense of impact. I'm going to live with the Gaia's installed for a while before I take them off to double check which I prefer.
 
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MattHooper

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Well it is common in a live music performance to have room awareness and room interaction.
I personally like it in the right dose. I like some sense of my room.
It is fine to me if someone wants to completely remove the room, just a different preference.
The studies I am familiar with demonstrated a small majority of listeners preferred playback in a typical room vs a heavily treated one. I'd suspect some similarly with vibrations in the floor and walls.

There is a characteristic I think of as "Audiophile Bass."

The general idea is that audiophiles sort of turn their nose up at the crude "one note" "slammin'" bass that impress many non-audiophiles. The audiophile wants the bass controlled, no sense of bloat, no sense of coming from a speaker, free of resonances like the rest of the frequency spectrum. To this end some speakers go to such heroic lengths of reducing cabinet resonances, making sure the frequency response has the bass in tight control, it can lead to a sort of "dry" bass response. It's like all the instruments are playing arrayed in the soundstage around the "marvelously disappearing speakers" and the bass, too, sits there behind the speakers, perfectly controlled, behaved and not really giving a lot of feel or driving the music.

I have my "good audiophile" and my "bad audiophile" sitting on each shoulder. My "good audiophile" wants that really well controlled bass, that neutrality, the added sense of realism and holography when you don't have "one note bass." The "bad" audiophile wants to ensure I'm feeling the music, that it is fun, that bass is kickin' ass when it needs to. So that's they type of balance I seek. (And that is one of the things that really attracted me to the Joseph Audio Perspective speakers I bought a few years ago. This was a slim floorstanding speaker that totally did all the "disappearing in to a vast soundstage with great imaging" tricks, reproduced instrumental and vocal timbre beatifully, yet it also had real balls in the bass and all my funk, rock etc music had great impact and drive).



Glad you are having fun.
Those feet look cool.
I use just use the 'supply house's cork&rubber sandwiches or the blue and rubber sandwiches.
They are very inexpensive and work extremely well in my experience as a moderate isolation solution. They will let some energy through but not much. Even if you hate the look I'd be very curious what you think of the sound.
I'd bet in blind test these 2 products sound identical.
Unfortunately there is a rubber odor.


I had tested out all sorts of materials in doing my turntable base, and also thinking of beneath my speakers too. They included ordering the type of product you mention from Amazon, and also bringing home similar things from Home Depot etc (like the isolators people would use under washing machines, shop machinery etc). Awful smells where often what led me to abandon many of those not-really-designed-for-audio-systems stuff.

BTW, I also did a lot of research and purchasing regarding putting wheels on my speakers. I'd originally bought big ol' Thiel 3.7 speakers which I always worried may be too big for my room, so I wanted to be able to wheel them in and out easily, especially if I wanted to watch movies on my projector in there. I tried tons of solutions but in the end gave up. The biggest hurdle was probably the fact they sat on a deep shag rug in that room. That meant small discrete looking wheels would get tangled when trying to maneuver the speakers. And the quite large wheels that would work were ugly and raised the speakers too high. I sold the bigger Thiels for my current smaller 2.7s.

The sacrifices one makes for fashion....
 

Chromatischism

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That's cool. Even with the Gaia footers installed, I do indeed experience some of that nice bass warmth - the rolling over me sensation of an orchestra engaging the lower registers, deep bass synth notes, etc. But with the speakers directly on the floor I sort of always felt the bass on most tracks. With these I occaisionally crank it a bit more to get a sense of impact. I'm going to live with the Gaia's installed for a while before I take them off to double check which I prefer.
I definitely prefer some tactile feel. For example I tried dual opposed subs (the ultimate in vibration elimination) but I lost too much of the experience. I'm now very happy with single-driver vented subs.
 
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MattHooper

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Here's an old photo of those big Thiels, from the room entrance. I'm sure you can see they presented some ergonomic challenges for the room...

THIEL 3.7 IN ROOM 2.jpg
 
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MattHooper

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I definitely prefer some tactile feel. For example I tried dual opposed subs (the ultimate in vibration elimination) but I lost too much of the experience. I'm now very happy with single-driver vented subs.

Indeed. I started out trying to just add my subs to my speakers playing full range - "REL" style. It was kind of nice, but also had some issues, kind of made the sound sluggish and dark. Once I started using an outboard crossover - the JL Audio CR1 is an incredible analog crossover in terms of ease of use yet intuitive for dialing in crossover points and levels - it was pretty amzing how smooth I got things sounding in the room (and also adding room EQ for the bass frequencies). But, like you say, I lost some of the excitement. The CR1 crossover allowed me to switch directly between the subs mixed in vs running the speakers full range, subs turned off. It was great for doing back and forth comparisons. I had my son sit in the listening room to test. He had absolutely no idea there were even subs in the room, or what the shiny metal box did sitting beside him on the sofa (crossover). I just asked him to listen to some tracks, and click the button on and off and tell me what he liked better. He always chose the sound with the subs out of the mix. At least with the Thiels, they go low enough that deeper bass didn't seem to add very much, but they were punchier on their own.
 
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MattHooper

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FWIW...

It DID change the tone of the sound slightly, though - a bit less warm and rich. I'll have to see if I get along with that over time. Also, there is a bit less room feel/density vs the speakers on the floor. But still, the sound doesn't have that weightless quality like when they are on springs.

Just following up on this ^^^

I have found over time that the tone wasn't quite to my liking. On the Gaia footers bass and everything is indeed tightened up, but the tone also "lightened up" as well. Like the upper mids/lower treble is slightly emphasized or something - a slightly chalky tone, not quite rich enough for my taste. But, darn it, I really have liked that extra bit of focus and control to the sound.

So I wondered: I had the Gaias under the speakers, sitting on the Isoacoustic carpet spikes - recommended if the speakers are sitting on a rug:

IsoAcoustics-Carpet-Disks-image.png

So they raised the speakers up even a bit further than just the Gaias themselves. I'd found that every time I've elevated these speakers off the floor, seemingly no matter what the material, it has lightened the tone more than I like. I tried compensating by slightly angling them down so I was at about the same angle with the tweeter. But it didn't really help that much. So I don't know if this change in tone is entirely due to the effects of the decoupling or...it seems to me more like it...due to raising the speaker up a bit and perhaps slightly changing the bass boundary effect? Any ideas?

In any case, for the heck of it I tried just taking out the carpet spikes. So the speaker sat a bit lower to the ground. AND...if one is to believe the Gaia concept, I should have lost some of the Gaia decoupling effect because they were no longer as firmly attached to the floor.

What I seemed to hear pleased me quite a bit! The sound seemed to gain back some more of the richness I was used to, less "toppy" and strident sounding. The bass was just a bit richer and not quite as holographic/focused and tight, but it was still quite good and better than I ever remember without the Gaia footers. Listening to a bunch of music over the past two days since, it seems close to a win-win. I think I've dialed this in nicely to my taste.
 
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