Springs Under My Speakers: What's Happening?

[MattHooper]

I would try multiple subs, and hide them around the room so they're not visible. You could use something like the miniDSP DDRC88A with Dirac to integrate them. If you're just doing stereo, the 88A will automatically integrate, EQ(both individually and as a group) and time align up to 6 subwoofers. You can also you the BM software to optimize crossovers. Supposedly they have another bass management software now, though, that's more advanced, though I have no experience with that.

Getting the subs properly time aligned and integrated is hard to do manually, ime, and if you've got good tower speakers to begin with, you often end up with a worse sound than the towers on their own.

I have to sheepishly admit my failing on subwoofers:

I hate them. I hate the look of subwoofers, the added cables, the added hassle etc. I have heard many set ups with subwoofers and never felt a seamless blend. Whenever I say that I hear "oh, that means you haven't heard them done properly, you need to hear my set up." And when I hear it...I find myself aware of the subwoofer. (The most seamless blend I ever heard was actually my Gradient dipole subwoofer with my Quad ESL 63s...no other subs I tried blended).

But being an audiophile I finally gave in a couple years ago and sought to try subwoofers again. I listened to the reams of advice on AVS by the local subwoofer-heads there. To "do it right" of course it was advised multiple subs, good crossover, measuring gear, DSP etc. I jumped in, bought it all...did some initial experiments, and friggin' gave up. It was just way more work and hassle than I was interested in. It's like the folks who are really in to calibration for their displays and projectors. It's unbelievable the amount of work some put in to it and find gratifying. I don't. I don't like making such work in to a second hobby. (I pay a pro to do mine). Likewise with subwoofers. Plus it was tough getting the aesthetics to work in my room.

So the stuff has been sitting around and I was going to sell it all in the next few weeks. But I realized I'd be up to one more experiment. I'm going to put a sub behind my sofa and see if I can dial it in, including using an Anti-Mode dsp unit I have on hand, to do an easy integration step (running my speakers rull range, just adding sub for low frequencies, dsping the sub). Far from ideal, but again I've realized I'm just not in to what it takes for the subwoofer perfectionist. If it works, it works. If not, I'm done with subs I think. (It's not like I'm pining for more low frequencies when I'm listening anyway).

Seems like you are doing an awful lot of messing around without knowing for sure if there is much of a real difference.

No, I can hear the difference.

I would get a decent microphone and do some measurements, also record some music with the mic and compare with DeltaWave. You seem like the type of person who would also find reward in learning how to do this.

Actually...I'm too lazy See above.

Sometimes I can get fired up enough to put a lot of work in to something like this (as I did when designing my turntable isolation platform). But not at the moment. I tend to leave that to others more qualified to measure and interpret this stuff.

 

[Purité Audio]

Just get full-range loudspeakers, much more straightforward.
Keith

 

[MattHooper]

Just get full-range loudspeakers, much more straightforward.
Keith

I agree it is "much more straight forward" in the sense you don't have to mess with subwoofers. The designer has done the integration for you. In fact, that's one of the things that spook me about adding subwoofers the usual way especially to larger floor standing speakers (e.g. crossing over around 80hz or thereabouts): You've taken a speaker that has the bass region very carefully integrated, presumably with care and knowledge by a speaker designer, and now you are playing speaker designer, mucking with the design and trying to create coherence again.
I understand that many have nonetheless found satisfaction in doing this, but again, I read of people spending amazing amounts of their time finally reaching a point of purported perfect blend, and I've yet to personally hear a total success.


But, otherwise, it's far from more straight-forward at least in my case. For one thing, full-range (to 20Hz) speakers are usually larger, and I have some aesthetic, ergonomic limits for my room, which is why I already moved from the larger Thiel 3.7 to the smaller 2.7 (and then the smaller Joseph Perspectives). Second, shooting for only full range would hugely limit the speakers available to me, and most of the ones I like best aren't spec'd to 20 Hz. Third, I'm not hankering for extra bass. The Thiels and the Joseph speakers go quite low with good power.
I'm just going to try a sub again to see if it adds anything more that I like. (Last time I tried it added some place, detracted elsewhere, and I preferred without the subs).

 

[Chromatischism]

I hate them. I hate the look of subwoofers, the added cables, the added hassle etc. I have heard many set ups with subwoofers and never felt a seamless blend. Whenever I say that I hear "oh, that means you haven't heard them done properly, you need to hear my set up." And when I hear it...I find myself aware of the subwoofer.

If you were nearby I'd let you listen to mine; I think you'd like what you hear. The bass is completely seamless.

 

[Chromatischism]

So the stuff has been sitting around and I was going to sell it all in the next few weeks. But I realized I'd be up to one more experiment. I'm going to put a sub behind my sofa and see if I can dial it in

In my experience if the sub is too close it can be distracting. Often times the most seamless sound is when the sub is further from the seat and against a wall.

 

[MattHooper]

If you were nearby I'd let you listen to mine; I think you'd like what you hear. The bass is completely seamless.

Thanks, I would certainly take you up on your offer. I love visiting other people to hear their systems. I used to literally travel around parts of Canada and the USA doing so. It was a blast!

In my experience if the sub is too close it can be distracting. Often times the most seamless sound is when the sub is further from the seat and against a wall.

Yeah, that's my worry obviously. Though I've heard of some who found satisfaction that way.

My issue is that my room is already outfitted for both my home theater speakers and my 2 channel speakers and there is very little room to add more (I don't use subs for my home theater, I find my L/R and very big center channel go low enough for me). I can't place subs next to the stereo speakers and the next best place is along the wall behind those speakers. But to put subs there means running extra AC for a powered sub, and running new cables to my amp/source room down the hall. Plus, it just gets "too many speakers piled up" looking with the subs.

Behind my sofa there's an existing AC outlet for power, and there is a conduit already leading to that spot if I decide I like the subs and have to run a cable to it. Plus it's out of sight behind the sofa. Hence, the reason for giving this a try. I'm also going to try the sub on a subwoofer isolation platform and the spring footers, to see how that works. I'm wondering if it will help the sub disappear a bit more as a nearby source, if it's not directly vibrating the floor near me.

 

[Purité Audio]

There are available relatively compact active full-range loudspeakers.
Keith

 

[MattHooper]

There are available relatively compact active full-range loudspeakers.
Keith

Oh yeah, of course you can find them. For instance the Kii Three speakers.

But they generally don't suit my goals (not looking for active) and tastes, and again limit me to a far more narrow range of options, cutting out speakers that I really love.

I mean, I'd have Kii Three speakers, which I auditioned, if I liked them better than my Thiel or Joseph speakers, but...I didn't. I wouldn't buy them just because they are full range, over a speaker I like better even if it were a bit more limited on the bottom. I certainly get why such speakers
fulfill the goals of other people though.

 

[puppet]

I've wondered if it would make sense to have subs mounted overhead ... in a cloud firing down or toward side walls into the listening space. Then you don't have to fuss with distributing them around on the floor.

 

[pjug]

I stumbled on this article while looking for some information on cabinet effects: https://www.audioholics.com/loudspeaker-design/loudspeaker-cabinets

The consensus of views expressed are at odds with the idea of isolating speakers: e.g.:

The action-reaction of a cabinet moving even slightly tends to degrade imaging accuracy, low-level resolution, and sense of “bloom”. It is the same effect as compression of the signal to the driver, because the full peak cannot be reached. Heavy, rigid cabinets on spikes will sound more accurate for any given driver complement.

Recently I put some cheap bookshelves with lively cabinets on sorbothane hemispheres and had very bad results where the problem was easily measured. These speakers have to be coupled to stands to sound OK. In general my feeling it is likely to be better to direct couple your speakers to whatever they are resting on unless you need to prevent nearby objects from rattling.

@MattHooper are the Thiel speaker cabinets fairly inert? I would have thought so. With large speakers with good cabinets really I wouldn't expect much difference between isolating and direct coupling, but my experience with floorstanders is minimal.

Anyway, the main point of this post is to consider the relationship between the mounting requirements and the quality of cabinet construction.

 

[Chromatischism]

Over the weekend I did some subjective testing of my S400's on sorbothane as previously pictured. The cabinets can be felt pulsating during high excursion, low frequency bass. However, the same sensation is not felt in the stands, so it seems the motion is being absorbed by the sorbothane. I'm sure I could measure it if I had the equipment.

 

[ROOSKIE]

I agree it is "much more straight forward" in the sense you don't have to mess with subwoofers. The designer has done the integration for you. In fact, that's one of the things that spook me about adding subwoofers the usual way especially to larger floor standing speakers (e.g. crossing over around 80hz or thereabouts): You've taken a speaker that has the bass region very carefully integrated, presumably with care and knowledge by a speaker designer, and now you are playing speaker designer, mucking with the design and trying to create coherence again.
I understand that many have nonetheless found satisfaction in doing this, but again, I read of people spending amazing amounts of their time finally reaching a point of purported perfect blend, and I've yet to personally hear a total success.


But, otherwise, it's far from more straight-forward at least in my case. For one thing, full-range (to 20Hz) speakers are usually larger, and I have some aesthetic, ergonomic limits for my room, which is why I already moved from the larger Thiel 3.7 to the smaller 2.7 (and then the smaller Joseph Perspectives). Second, shooting for only full range would hugely limit the speakers available to me, and most of the ones I like best aren't spec'd to 20 Hz. Third, I'm not hankering for extra bass. The Thiels and the Joseph speakers go quite low with good power.
I'm just going to try a sub again to see if it adds anything more that I like. (Last time I tried it added some place, detracted elsewhere, and I preferred without the subs).

Interesting how much trouble you have had integrating a sub.

The room dominates the bass far more than the design.

I recommend 2 subs, never just one.

Beyond that I have zero problem integrating subs in my systems. None. I have used subs blended from 40hz up to 150hz with absolute seamless integration without fail.
I use active crossovers and PEQ/DSP. I use REW(free) and a microphone to assist. There is zero chance that I am talking trash, the integration is seamless and I am picky.
In fact the bass is better "integrated" within the music than without subs. The response is more "even", far more full.
IDN, maybe give measuring a shot.

A quick and dirty method (when using PEQ and adjustable LP/HP) place 2 subs in a "stereo" array on the outside of you mains(closer to the sidewall and perhaps closer the front wall)
Ignore any "time alignment" if the subs are within 4 feet of each respective mains speaker (do ensure they are in phase.)
Overlap the subs and mains approx. 1 octave. (if HP the mains at 50hz, LP the sub @100. Measure this - don't just go by dials, we need actual acoustic transition.
I do recommend around 24db/octave slopes or even 48. (try 12 if you get inspired just in case but it hasn't worked well for me, & I mean acoustic not electrical - you will have to measure)
You will have some peaks - knock those back with the PEQ without going overboard trying to get it perfect.
Done. 90% sure you will already have fantastic sound, though tweak a bit further for taste.

 

[Max Townshend]

I had in mind measuring the speakers yes. Of course you could do both. Measure floor and speakers with and without springs.

It is no big mystery. Springs with a given strength and weight will act as a 2nd order low pass filter. They'll decouple frequencies above a certain frequencies so they can't pass the barrier. Townshend will have done the work to figure out what size spring and damping you need for a given weight speaker. I don't happen to know what frequency they wish to decouple, but I'm guessing somewhere just below 20 hz, and above.

3hz and above.

 

[steve59]

Bump, I’m thinking about trying the Gaia isolators with my kef blades, but with the speakers sitting on carpet over concrete I wonder.

 

[Sal1950]

Bump, I’m thinking about trying the Gaia isolators with my kef blades, but with the speakers sitting on carpet over concrete I wonder.

What's your desired goal?

 

[steve59]

I read from more than a few sites the profound improvement these make and I’m curious. I’m still infatuated with my current speakers so there’s no need to change things up out of boredom. When i read 50 posts (AGON) in a row saying it’s the best single improvement we can make for our system it piques my interest.

 

[Sal1950]

I can only say this, that's a lot of money for rubber feet.
I don't buy into the "profound" bit but it's possible they will change the sound of the way the speakers interface with your room/floor in some minor ways?
Seeing as you can afford KEF Blades, what's a few hundred more?
Try a set from somewhere like Crutchfield, they have a liberal 60 day return policy, if they don't live up to your expectations you can send them back.

 

[Thomas_A]

Why not just try sylomer?

 

[steve59]

I can only say this, that's a lot of money for rubber feet.
I don't buy into the "profound" bit but it's possible they will change the sound of the way the speakers interface with your room/floor in some minor ways?
Seeing as you can afford KEF Blades, what's a few hundred more?
Try a set from somewhere like Crutchfield, they have a liberal 60 day return policy, if they don't live up to your expectations you can send them back

I thought they were a metal sandwich with a spring core?
Different isn't necessarily better in the long term.
My income doesn't afford me the Kef Blades, but i'm going to keep them as long as I can.
60 day return policy is great.

Speakers in this price range do a pretty good job of hiding their flaws but most of them have something that distracts from the event and I expect the gaia iso's extend the illusion. While I'm curious of the product I currently have no need for it.

 

[Sal1950]

I thought they were a metal sandwich with a spring core?

TBH I don't have much real knowledge of their actual construction.

Speakers in this price range do a pretty good job of hiding their flaws but most of them have something that distracts from the event and I expect the gaia iso's extend the illusion.

No offense meant but sounds like your suffering from a serious case of Audiophilia nervosa
I prescribe a minimum of 1 years time reading and learning from the learned folks here at ASR.