Springs Under My Speakers: What's Happening?

[MattHooper]

No physical mechanism for the sound to change.
Keith

That’s your claim: that there is no way isolating my loudspeakers from the wood floor in my room with springs could have changed the sound.

What is the evidence for your claim? Do you have any measurements of my loudspeakers in my room with and without springs to verify your claim?

Can you put forth measurements that would definitively rule out any audible change in my scenario? (Against the comments by other people knowledgable about vibration having said otherwise?)

I’m not really pretending that Kieth is suddenly engaging in good faith, but against his claim that there was is no physical mechanism for the sound to change, he’s been corrected on this a number of times through the thread.

The general principal that tiny vibrations can be translated to larger and potentially audible vibrations by coupling with a larger surface has been shown and explained a number of times.

Among the many contributions, Thomas Posted

There was another earlier video showing Vivid Audio speaker designer Laurence Dickie demonstrating the principal.

I showed vibrometer measurements showing clear decoupling of impact vibrations between the loudspeaker and the floor, which demonstrates at least the principle of isolating a vibrating loudspeaker from the floor.

Further, this video was posted earlier showing measurements of different footers, spikes, a credo isolation base, and the Townshend spring isolators. They measured vibration characteristics at various frequencies clearly changing, depending on what the speaker was sitting on. And it includes measurements demonstrating how the floor vibrations from the speaker are also moving back up into the speaker, causing changes in the measurements.

They also measure the sound coming from the speaker in a regular listening room, sitting on the floor versus on their isolation base, and the measurements show changes in the sound.

So at least in principle, some of the mechanisms have actually been demonstrated and measured. In contrast to the claim that no such mechanism exists. (a claim which Keith still needs to demonstrate.)

I leave Keith to move the goal posts after having made his claim…

 

[Philim]

That’s what I was thinking of doing at one point. It’s really cool to see somebody who actually did it.



Yeah, it can be a game of just sort of pushing resonances around and seeing what happens.

I quite enjoyed having fun with the process.

(there’s a good review of new Magico speakers in the latest issue of Stereophile, where John Atkinson discusses material resonances with the Alon Wolfe. And they discussed how it’s a misunderstanding somehow have that materials like stone or aluminum don’t vibrate audibly, when they do ring quite a bit, and so if you want to make a heroically designed enclosure, and you are using something like aluminum, you also have to incorporate damping. Otherwise you’re just moving around resonances. That’s basically the approach I took. I noticed that even two thick sheets of granite still rang when I knuckle rapped them, and then I used car sound taping material between them, and that really deadened the sound. However I assume they still resonate, so they still may be contributing something to the sound of the set up, and how they interact with my speakers and or the floor.

I will try and find it but there is a thread somewhere where people did build very close replicas to the Townshend using springs, cycle inner tubes as damping (townshends push air through a hole ) and Indian pickle trays that resemble the curved top and bottom of the pod.

 

[Philim]

How dare you.
I most never have a drink, seem angry, or want a fight.
But you would already know that, thanks to your total 7 posts, and 4 likes.

Good lord man. Why would I already know that????

I posted here as I stumbled across an old post that was coincidentally trying something I was also trying. I really enjoy the tinkering side of hifi and just wanted to share what I had done out of interest with the OP. I wasn't proclaiming some night and day transformation in sound only what I had seen using a vibrometer.
Incidentally I also love the scientific approach taken on here.
That doesn't mean you can't enjoy both.
Get over yourself.

 

[Heinrich]

It’s probably just me, but I don’t understand the point you’re making exactly.

Do I understand correctly that you’re not particularly skeptical that isolating floor standing loudspeakers from a wood floor via springs could alter the sound?

Presumably the reference to a particular brand in your first post triggered the nay-sayers. To decouple isn't of any intellectual complication. It simply doesn't work. Above you quote (by video) some talking from the side of eager hifi enthusiasts Again, to de-couple isn't possible until you rush into orbit, micro gravitation and all (see my signature, "Space Is The Place").

Question is, how you couple the inertia, or momentum, of you drivers' cones to the ground. The how is it. In principle spikes and springs and magnetic fields ... do all the same. Some devices look better, some less, but the underlying physics is literally identical, even if you don't take special precautions and just drop-fit the boxes naked to whatever there is.

That said, if you are intersted to rest the case eventually, we only need to consider Newton's "laws" of mechanics. I'm afraid, though, that the topic generated too much heat (= lost energy), asking for measurements instead of anecdotal, "sighted" - claims? I perfectly understand, that measuring vibration on the micrometer scale isn't for everyone. I can do, but I'm in your camp somehow, because I use rubber feet myself, cheap and easy from the home depot, to keep my European neighbours uninformed ;-)

 

[Purité Audio]

That’s your claim: that there is no way isolating my loudspeakers from the wood floor in my room with springs could have changed the sound.

What is the evidence for your claim? Do you have any measurements of my loudspeakers in my room with and without springs to verify your claim?

Can you put forth measurements that would definitively rule out any audible change in my scenario? (Against the comments by other people knowledgable about vibration having said otherwise?)

I’m not really pretending that Kieth is suddenly engaging in good faith, but against his claim that there was is no physical mechanism for the sound to change, he’s been corrected on this a number of times through the thread.

The general principal that tiny vibrations can be translated to larger and potentially audible vibrations by coupling with a larger surface has been shown and explained a number of times.

Among the many contributions, Thomas Posted

There was another earlier video showing Vivid Audio speaker designer Laurence Dickie demonstrating the principal.

I showed vibrometer measurements showing clear decoupling of impact vibrations between the loudspeaker and the floor, which demonstrates at least the principle of isolating a vibrating loudspeaker from the floor.

Further, this video was posted earlier showing measurements of different footers, spikes, a credo isolation base, and the Townshend spring isolators. They measured vibration characteristics at various frequencies clearly changing, depending on what the speaker was sitting on. And it includes measurements demonstrating how the floor vibrations from the speaker are also moving back up into the speaker, causing changes in the measurements.

They also measure the sound coming from the speaker in a regular listening room, sitting on the floor versus on their isolation base, and the measurements show changes in the sound.

So at least in principle, some of the mechanisms have actually been demonstrated and measured. In contrast to the claim that no such mechanism exists. (a claim which Keith still needs to demonstrate.)

I leave Keith to move the goal posts after having made his claim…

I can imagine a scenario where a heroically badly made loudspeaker could transmit enough vibration to cause an audible resonance, are your speakers that poorly designed?
Also you might consider the resonance ( if there was to be one) which would be caused by the airborne transmission.
Just more audiophile nonsense, buy properly designed loudspeakers in the first instance.
Keith

 

[Thomas_A]

Presumably the reference to a particular brand in your first post triggered the nay-sayers. To decouple isn't of any intellectual complication. It simply doesn't work. Above you quote (by video) some talking from the side of eager hifi enthusiasts Again, to de-couple isn't possible until you rush into orbit, micro gravitation and all (see my signature, "Space Is The Place").

Question is, how you couple the inertia, or momentum, of you drivers' cones to the ground. The how is it. In principle spikes and springs and magnetic fields ... do all the same. Some devices look better, some less, but the underlying physics is literally identical, even if you don't take special precautions and just drop-fit the boxes naked to whatever there is.

That said, if you are intersted to rest the case eventually, we only need to consider Newton's "laws" of mechanics. I'm afraid, though, that the topic generated too much heat (= lost energy), asking for measurements instead of anecdotal, "sighted" - claims? I perfectly understand, that measuring vibration on the micrometer scale isn't for everyone. I can do, but I'm in your camp somehow, because I use rubber feet myself, cheap and easy from the home depot, to keep my European neighbours uninformed ;-)

Point that has been said many times; "de-coupling" can be done using soft feet, where the resonance of the support-foot-speaker is below the lowest frequency that the speaker can reproduce (below 10 Hz is a good start). Hard feet or "coupling to the ground" using spikes just do not work. Physics and measurements show the same, resonance falls somewhere in the bass region.

 

[Heinrich]

Point that has been said many times; "de-coupling" can be done using soft feet, where the resonance of the support-foot-speaker is below the lowest frequency that the speaker can reproduce (below 10 Hz is a good start). Hard feet or "coupling to the ground" using spikes just do not work. Physics and measurements show the same, resonance falls somewhere in the bass region.

"Spikes" raise the resonances into the several hundreds to kilo Hertz. No good either. Regarding the video on "Credeo" isolation base, is audio religion? If you buy it, you're sold.

 

[Thomas_A]

"Spikes" raise the resonances into the several hundreds to kilo Hertz. No good either. Regarding the video on "Credeo" isolation base, is audio religion? If you buy it, you're sold.

I’ve never seen hard feet that raise the resonances to the kHz region though. Note: Frequency response is acceleration in graph below.

 

[OldHvyMec]

No physical mechanism for the sound to change.

Of course, there is, the actual floor. Whether it's concrete or a stem wall floor. 99% of all slabs within 10 years have subsidence, and all stem wall floors act as a large passive driver when the speaker is coupled to the surface. It takes a good design and a lot of construction glue (liquid nails) to change how a suspended floor will act. You are making an argument from what you don't know. I'm making a statement from what I do know, from working on and around repair jobs that drill through the slab and install friction piers or tie-back strands to the floor, and then injecting an epoxy/concrete to couple/glue the concrete floor to the substrate/piers.

My neighbor paid 4K to have a single room with suspended floors made of tongue and groove with 3/4 ply. The contractor glued the T&G to the joist (in the crawl space) with construction silicone to add damping just for music. The contractor had done the same thing many times on older construction before they used construction adhesive. The old trick was to screw every other securement and use either screw nails or ring shanks for the rest of the securements.

Springs, pods, air ride, and ceiling suspension have been around for 50+ years. Catch up, you're way behind on this one.

If I've misunderstood your statement, please clarify.

Regards.

 

[Purité Audio]

Show me the measurements that show an audible difference, remember you need to create an audible resonance.
Far more likely that the airborne transmission will be an issue.
Keith

 

[OldHvyMec]

Show me the measurements that show an audible difference,

Jump up and down on a slab with subsidence or a pre-1980 stem-wall floor construction in the US. Christ, dude, I worked on construction projects for 45 years.
Every person who has worked in the business knows that. It is common knowledge. Who the F&^K is going to measure what a customer is complaining about?

A kid playing in the basement jumping up and down, and MOM hears the boom in every room on the 1st and 2nd floor. After the fix, it is GONE.

Like I've said many times, there is reason to measure stuff if you need to confirm certain things, your personal lack of experience isn't a reason.

Would you want a measurement after a mechanic fixed your engine after you ran it out of oil? He's thrown you out of his/her shop for asking and then chew you out for not looking at the dipstick to begin with.

Do you ask a doctor for a measurement when he removes 8 feet of your small intestine because you rotted it out from drinking? There is a point at which measurement has nothing to do with science. It's called common sense coupled with experience. I suppose you can measure that but you'll likely be charged for the time and the silly request.

Good Lord!

Some people take the fun out of a FART!!!

Regards

 

[Purité Audio]

‘Like I've said many times, there is reason to measure stuff if you need to confirm certain things, your personal lack of experience isn't a reason.’
I have spent several days with a laboratory isolation manufacturer ( not audio foo, active isolation of nuclear force microscopes) we measure with their four plane accelerometer the amount of vibration transmitted with and without their active isolation.
The company were considering marketing a product specifically for loudspeakers they concluded that it just wasn’t worth it.
Keith

 

[MAB]

People need to wonder why the isolation manufacturers never show the actual sound in the room. The latest video is the same.

They also measure the sound coming from the speaker in a regular listening room, sitting on the floor versus on their isolation base, and the measurements show changes in the sound.

They did not measure the sound, they measured the speaker cabinet vibrations with an accelerometer. I think I know why they did this, because they couldn't get an measurable difference between the treatments using a microphone to measure.

Also, they keep saying they are measuring the floor, they are measuring the speaker cabinet. They should have measured both, and the sound field in the room with a mic. Or just used a mic.

Not that it matters, note the scale:

They provide nothing in the video to tell us what the energy input is, but the resulting signal and resonance are... tiny.
Do people really think these vibrations are audible? Do we think that this tiny energy is really causing the floor to vibrate audibly? Do we really think the floor primarily vibrates because of the speaker chassis, or because of the acceleration of the air in the room?

Ethan Winer actually measured the sound. He found negligible changes. I've done the same, several times, posted the actual differences. I'm not trying to sell expensive isolation products though, so I use a microphone to show what the actual differences are.

 

[Thomas_A]

People need to wonder why the isolation manufacturers never show the actual sound in the room. The latest video is the same.

They did not measure the sound, they measured the speaker cabinet vibrations with an accelerometer. I think I know why they did this, because they couldn't get an measurable difference between the treatments using a microphone to measure.
View attachment 462684
Also, they keep saying they are measuring the floor, they are measuring the speaker cabinet. They should have measured both, and the sound field in the room with a mic. Or just used a mic.

Not that it matters, note the scale:
View attachment 462683
They provide nothing in the video to tell us what the energy input is, but the resulting signal and resonance are... tiny.
Do people really think these vibrations are audible? Do we think that this tiny energy is really causing the floor to vibrate audibly? Do we really think the floor primarily vibrates because of the speaker chassis, or because of the acceleration of the air in the room?

Ethan Winer actually measured the sound. He found negligible changes. I've done the same, several times, posted the actual differences. I'm not trying to sell expensive isolation products though, so I use a microphone to show what the actual differences are.

They say that they measured the sound as well at listening position. However, from the pictures I can't see very much and this would need to be done several times to see whether the results are repeatable. They did also only show speaker directly on floor vs. the podium, so there is a clear height difference.

 

[MattHooper]

I can imagine a scenario where a heroically badly made loudspeaker could transmit enough vibration to cause an audible resonance, are your speakers that poorly designed?

So…nothing, no actual evidence against my claim, just another opportunity to try and take a dig at my speakers,

Yeah, we’ve been here before. See ya.

 

[MattHooper]

People need to wonder why the isolation manufacturers never show the actual sound in the room. The latest video is the same.

They did not measure the sound, they measured the speaker cabinet vibrations with an accelerometer. I think I know why they did this, because they couldn't get an measurable difference between the treatments using a microphone to measure.
View attachment 462684
Also, they keep saying they are measuring the floor, they are measuring the speaker cabinet. They should have measured both, and the sound field in the room with a mic. Or just used a mic.

Not that it matters, note the scale:
View attachment 462683
They provide nothing in the video to tell us what the energy input is, but the resulting signal and resonance are... tiny.
Do people really think these vibrations are audible? Do we think that this tiny energy is really causing the floor to vibrate audibly? Do we really think the floor primarily vibrates because of the speaker chassis, or because of the acceleration of the air in the room?

Ethan Winer actually measured the sound. He found negligible changes. I've done the same, several times, posted the actual differences. I'm not trying to sell expensive isolation products though, so I use a microphone to show what the actual differences are.

Later in the video they measured the sound from the loudspeakers using a microphone.
So if there were changes, there were changes in the sound.

And that’s the claim I was addressing - that there was “ no mechanism by which the sound could change.”

The level of audibility is another issue, and presumably would be variable depending on the loudspeakers/floor/what might be sitting between them, etc.

I do share your skepticism when it comes to manufacturers not using actual music or sound signals to demonstrate the claims.
For instance, there’s a nice Townshend demonstration video using vibrometers showing how loudspeakers placed on their platform are isolated from impact vibrations on the ground around the loudspeaker. And there’s also a demonstration showing that the loudspeaker on the floor when it is tapped shows ringing, whereas when they are sitting on the platform when they are tapped, they show a much cleaner impulse response without the ringing.

So something is going on there.

However, what I want to see are such results demonstrated using musical signals, or at the very least a Sonic impulse signal sent through the drivers, showing the same phenomenon, rather than just impacts upon the speaker.

 

[Sal1950]

Vibration control in all combustion engines is the main reason they stay together and last as long as they do (now). Currently, it's not uncommon the see 10,000 hours or 1.5 million miles on a diesel engine or 350,000 miles on a gas or LPG engine behind designed front and rear crankshaft damping/vibration control. Better lubricants, and cleaner burns in the combustion chamber, resulting in practically ZERO wash from over-fueling and near ZERO wear as a result. If not for the air (that always has some contamination) in combustion engines, engines would likely live longer than most humans under normal, everyday use.

The facts are simple: most of the HiFi world is still in the stone age. Another fact is top-notch engineers don't work for speaker companies or people who design and build HiFi gear. They are building sound walls, bridges, high-rises, freeway overpasses or crap for NASA, not Marantz or Wilson.

Uh hun, I see all the old classic speakers crumbling into dust from vibration damage. ???

 

[Purité Audio]

So…nothing, no actual evidence against my claim, just another opportunity to try and take a dig at my speakers,

Yeah, we’ve been here before. See ya.

You are making the extraordinary claim, not me.
Keith

 

[MattHooper]

You are making the extraordinary claim, not me.
Keith

That’s dodging the issue I have pointed out.

I pointed out that you yourself made a positive claim:

“No physical mechanism for the sound to change.”

You have yet to provide evidence or measurements showing that there was no possible mechanism by which the springs could’ve made a difference in my set up.

You can avoid this if you want to be more careful about the claims you make.

And you are also avoiding the part in the video where measurements showed changes in the sound coming from the loudspeaker.

 

[dfuller]

Uh hun, I see all the old classic speakers crumbling into dust from vibration damage. ???

Let's not pretend a speaker as anywhere near as punishing an environment as the inside of an engine.

Anyway.

Spring loaded stands would act as a high pass filter. That's what's happening. Not coupling to the floor.