• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Spotify and loudness normalization - how can normalizaed track have higher DR than non-normalized

charleski

Major Contributor
Joined
Dec 15, 2019
Messages
1,098
Likes
2,240
Location
Manchester UK
yes, encoding will often create higher peaks, that's why the master should have headroom.
The master needs not to be clipped, and the easiest way to check this is to look at the True Peak, which takes into account inter-sample peaks. A bit of googling shows that Spotify is specifying a max True Peak of -2dB for loud tracks, which is really conservative and, frankly, suggests that their encoder is sub-optimal.
 

bennetng

Major Contributor
Joined
Nov 15, 2017
Messages
1,634
Likes
1,693
yes, encoding will often create higher peaks, that's why the master should have headroom.
This can be trivially done by service providers in automated ways rather than blaming mastering engineers because streaming services providers decide what formats and settings to use, not mastering engineers. Different codecs and different settings create different peaks, in some worst cases the encoded files can have 10dB over as illustrated by iZotope:
https://izotope-rx.livejournal.com/5760.html

If the mastering engineers need to handle this uncertainty they actually need to further cripple the master.
Some engineers may simply set their limiter to limit more severely to "provide" headroom so that their true peak meters don't complain, but result in higher distortion.

Also, if the sources are for examples, from old CDs, then it is simply impossible for the mastering process to predict the future. The service provider need to take care of these things.
 
Last edited:

bennetng

Major Contributor
Joined
Nov 15, 2017
Messages
1,634
Likes
1,693
None of this would be an issue if Spotify would just do floating point output. It’s a much easier ask than getting every single person and label submitting stuff to limit their files to -2 dBTP instead.
Ideally, Spotify should just normalize the masters to ensure the encoded files don't contain 0dBFS+ values by using a two-pass approach, if what they use are not floating-point compliant.
 

hyperplanar

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 31, 2020
Messages
301
Likes
581
Location
Los Angeles
Ideally, Spotify should just normalize the masters to ensure the encoded files don't contain 0dBFS+ values by using a two-pass approach, if what they use are not floating-point compliant.
That might pose a problem preserving the intended relative loudness of songs when playing albums though, since this normalization would effectively be done per song. That’s also going to take a substantial amount of processing over the back catalog on Spotify’s end. Additionally, Spotify’s actual volume normalization results in 16-bit output and is limited to -1 dBFS, before the volume control. IMO it would be better to have the limiter after the volume control—so with normalization on, the volume control essentially sets a target loudness, while allowing the full digital dynamic range above that to be used as well for more dynamic songs that need it. All of these goals could be most easily facilitated by just having the Ogg decoder output in float.
 

bennetng

Major Contributor
Joined
Nov 15, 2017
Messages
1,634
Likes
1,693
That might pose a problem preserving the intended relative loudness of songs when playing albums though, since this normalization would effectively be done per song. That’s also going to take a substantial amount of processing over the back catalog on Spotify’s end. Additionally, Spotify’s actual volume normalization results in 16-bit output and is limited to -1 dBFS, before the volume control. IMO it would be better to have the limiter after the volume control—so with normalization on, the volume control essentially sets a target loudness, while allowing the full digital dynamic range above that to be used as well. All of these goals could be most easily facilitated by just having the Ogg decoder output in float.
Of course, the most ideal ways are using floating point in every step, and have more flexibility at the client side normalization settings. Did they not earn enough to implement these things? I wonder.
 

hyperplanar

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 31, 2020
Messages
301
Likes
581
Location
Los Angeles
Of course, the most ideal ways are using floating point in every step, and have more flexibility at the client side normalization settings. Did they not earn enough to implement these things? I wonder.
Probably a lack of interest if anything. The audio pipeline has probably largely stayed the same from when Spotify was a tiny startup more than 10 years ago. I can’t imagine that many people petitioning Spotify to have their Ogg decoder output float instead of 16-bit integer, so here we are. I thought about posting a suggestion in their community forums, but I have no idea how I would effectively communicate this idea to non-technical people.

Really hope the 16-bit normalization issue is resolved by the time Spotify Hi-Fi comes out, but I wouldn’t bet on it... nothing says Hi-Fi quite like 13-bit resolution in 2021 after all :)
 

danadam

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Jan 20, 2017
Messages
993
Likes
1,543
Also, it’s worth considering how much resolution you lose when setting the normalization to quiet, considering that it’s done in 16-bit. If it turns down the level by 18 dB then Spotify’s output is effectively only 13 bits at best.
If the level is reduced by 18 dB then it means that the album was mastered at -5 LUFS. Such album, at least in my opinion, does not deserve 16 bits in the first place :)
Albums mastered at -23 LUFS (e.g. classical) will retain all 16 of their bits. Albums mastered at -14 LUFS will lose only 1.5 bit.
 
Last edited:

hyperplanar

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 31, 2020
Messages
301
Likes
581
Location
Los Angeles
If the level is reduced by 18 dB then it means that the album was mastered at -5 LUFS. Such album, at least in my opinion, does not deserve 16 bits in the first place :)
Albums mastered at -23 LUFS (e.g. classical) will retain all 16 of their bits. Albums mastered at -14 LUFS will lose only 1.5 bit.
This is true :)

I think it’s the principle and more of a “why not do things the right way” thing for me. How many hours of work would it really take to, at the very least, have the Ogg decoder/normalization output 24-bit integer instead of 16...
 

HiFidFan

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 22, 2021
Messages
723
Likes
906
Location
U.S.A
^ I'd love to the results of Amazon HD analysis. I'm trialing it, and a few other streaming services now.
 

Thomas savage

Grand Contributor
The Watchman
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 24, 2016
Messages
10,260
Likes
16,305
Location
uk, taunton
lol Amazon mp3 or Amazon HD?

One may clip more than the other (normalisation off in both). But would need to analyse like was done here for Spotty
Well this was while I was in the gym using bose ear buds so..

Iv switch it on now using my hifi , can't say anything terrible has happened , having to be more Liberal with the volume knob lol

Edit , abba definitely sound duller with the normalisation on no matter how much you turn it up .

Different genre's of music will have different loudness levels , i dont see the point personally.

After a bit of EQ adjustment, I'm a fan of this ha ha

It takes away troublesome peaks that can distort and cause annoyance on certain albums . With a bit of eq to liven up the sound , it seems the best of all worlds.

I dont think you can simply turn the loudness normalisation on and leave it there . It definitely robs you of some energy in the upper mid band .
 
Last edited:
OP
M

Music1969

Major Contributor
Joined
Feb 19, 2018
Messages
4,676
Likes
2,849
It definitely robs you of some energy in the upper mid band .

Lol robs you of some clipping related energy? :p

Well this was while I was in the gym using bose ear buds so..

Iv switch it on now using my hifi , can't say anything terrible has happened , having to be more Liberal with the volume knob lol

Edit , abba definitely sound duller with the normalisation on no matter how much you turn it up

Hopefully no abba at the gym though? If so, that needs a separate thread LOL
 

krabapple

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Apr 15, 2016
Messages
3,194
Likes
3,761
Normalization *by itself* does not change DR. It is simply applying gain -- turning the audio up or down to hit a predetermined loudness or peak level.

If DR changes, something else is going on.
 

krabapple

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Apr 15, 2016
Messages
3,194
Likes
3,761
Right . I just felt that fact got lost in all the discussion and could use emphasizing. The thread is barely about normalization at all, even though the word keeps getting used.
 
OP
M

Music1969

Major Contributor
Joined
Feb 19, 2018
Messages
4,676
Likes
2,849
The thread is barely about normalization at all, even though the word keeps getting used.

If you don't want the app to apply limiting (if that is part of the problem) then using normalization probably helps... I think it was an important thing that was discussed. In this case, normalization is highly relevant to this discussion.
 

Mnyb

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Aug 14, 2019
Messages
2,768
Likes
3,846
Location
Sweden, Västerås
What is the least bad way to use Spotify if your music taste does not include to many crushed masters ?
More jazz and blues ?

Interesting tread thanks @hyperplanar for a very likely hypothesis off how Spotify do stuff.
I’ve often wondered what they are up to as ogg at 320kBps is a decent codec and should behave transparent.
But ive get mixed result usually in most cases its fine and other times I get the feel that it’s not ?
 

hyperplanar

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 31, 2020
Messages
301
Likes
581
Location
Los Angeles
What is the least bad way to use Spotify if your music taste does not include to many crushed masters ?
More jazz and blues ?

Interesting tread thanks @hyperplanar for a very likely hypothesis off how Spotify do stuff.
I’ve often wondered what they are up to as ogg at 320kBps is a decent codec and should behave transparent.
But ive get mixed result usually in most cases its fine and other times I get the feel that it’s not ?

I think your safest bet would be normalization set to Quiet in that case. I use Normal because I listen to a lot of electronic stuff that tends to be mastered pretty hot, there's only a few songs in my library dynamic enough to hit the limiter instead of having their gain reduced.
 
Top Bottom