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Speakers that produce astonishing soundstaging/imaging?

thewas

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MarkWinston

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Speakers make a huge difference, even in the same room playing the same track. Or are we going to see a new group emerge; the all-competant-speakers-have-the same-soundstage-when-volume-matched group and at this point, every damn thing sounds the same when volume matched.
 

DanielT

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To my personal experience it correlates a lot with smooth horizontal and vertical directivity, which means that the distances of the drivers are smaller than the crossover frequency wavelengths (so close to a point source) and there are also no directivity problems on some angles due to secondary radiation sources https://heissmann-acoustics.de/en/kantendiffraktion-sekundaerschallquellen-treiberanordnun/
I'll add a DIY link to, ppataki's line speakers look great.Attached picture, ppataki's DIY, from the thread:


Line speakers, from floor to ceiling, are a smart way to reduce floor and ceiling reflections.

Built-in high speakers in the wall are also smart, use the whole wall as a baffle. The sound does not bounce against any edges (if the wall is flat). It slips to the end of the wall. Now, not everyone has the opportunity to build speakers / speaker elements into the wall, but still.
 

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JRS

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No one mentioned the big Maggies. When set up just right, amazing.
I did mention them, and bring that up only so the OP knows that "Maggies" is an affectionate nicknames for Magneplaners, and yes they can deliver a very holographic image on well-miked source material, making for a very beguiling sound that is reach-out-and-touch-someone real when those big panels are singing, a wall of sound on crap recordings and/or improperly set up.
 

eddantes

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No one mentioned the big Maggies. When set up just right, amazing.
I had big maggies... "head in a vice" and a very narrow operating volume (too quiet: lose the illusion, too loud: mylar slap). But... YES, absolutely - inside that magic spot, like the kids say: amazeballs!
 

ahofer

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100% of us started out in some capacity as an audiophile nut fooled by some thing or another.(or many things)
true dat
 

ahofer

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While you are out about, I would suggest listening to some large panel speakers. T
I think this comes down to the difference between a spacious, "room full of sound" feeling vs accurate or focused imaging. I ultimately sold my Magnepans because the actual imaging was all over the place (no, my room wasn't optimally treated, nor will it ever be). Orchestras and chamber ensembles would flip around and some instruments would have weird prominence. I presume chaotic reflections can both immerse you and distract you in that way.

I moved to Thiels, which were very precise. Kept them for over 20 yrs (CS3.6). Now I have Harbeths, which manage to feel pretty spacious without giving up too much focus. And, yes, rooms have changed and played a role in these impressions in uncontrolled ways.

I guess what I'm saying is "imaging" and "soundstage" are mental constructs, and part of the circle of confusion is differing subjective meanings when we are discussing it. I also think "imaging" is too often studio fiction outside of classical recordings (and sometimes inside 'em!).
 

Mart68

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I'm posting this for a friend who's in the market for new speakers but currently doesn't have the time to research as much as he'd like.

A bit of background, he has some mid priced (~about EUR 2k new) floorstanders made by a company that's completely obscure to me, I can't even remember the name right now except that they're made in the Netherlands. They sound detailed but IMO lack bass (especially for the size) and I'd characterize the staging as a wall of sound. Especially no depth. We listened to them in a few different rooms with different electronics but the signature remained unchanged. Definitely not something I would prefer, especially over my speakers. A friend of his who used to work for a radio station and has presumably some exposure to quality audio visited and said the same thing, which finally made him want to upgrade.

Now, this may be controversial to some but in my limited experience spatial qualities of sound are an intrinsic quality of the speakers. Positioning helps to a point and electronics can blur the stage, especially at higher volumes. But I've never had an experience where speakers were transformed beyond recognition by electronics.

Since my days when I used to have the occasion to listen to various systems regularly, visit audio shows etc are a distant memory, I can't recommend him anything, especially since he's willing to spend a few thousand euros. But his willingness to upgrade made me want to post this for him, since I happen to think spectacularly spatial sound is the one thing that misses in most audio systems. This doesn't need to be about this specific recommendation (although I hope that it can help narrow the search) but anyone willing to share about their experiences with this is welcome.
Even Floyd Toole doesn't have much to say on the subject of stereo imaging so not sure there is any answer that can be backed up with hard science.

IME most competently designed speakers will image reasonably well assuming they are set up properly and the listener is sat on axis.

The best I have heard for imaging are the Linkwitz LX521 but they are not a commercial design, you must build them or commission a build. They need a fair bit of space between them and the side wall, although that will help improve the imaging of most speakers too.

Another tip is not to have anything in between the speakers (racks, furniture etc) unless it is sat back from the plane of the drivers.

Would help if we knew the make and model of the speakers currently being used. if they are a disaster of a design then the finger points there. If not it's the way they are being set up. Or possibly the amp cannot drive them properly, which will screw the sound six ways from Sunday.
 

audio2design

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I think this comes down to the difference between a spacious, "room full of sound" feeling vs accurate or focused imaging. I ultimately sold my Magnepans because the actual imaging was all over the place (no, my room wasn't optimally treated, nor will it ever be). Orchestras and chamber ensembles would flip around and some instruments would have weird prominence. I presume chaotic reflections can both immerse you and distract you in that way.

Other than the attitude of the op, this is the other reason why I have not responded much in this thread. I could tell you exactly how to get accurate imaging, at least faithful to what is on the recording this is in most cases mixed near-field in a somewhat treated space, but not exclusively. Would you be happy with the result? 50/50.
 

polmuaddib

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It seems that there is a belief that imaging is a separate quality of loudspeakers.
I think that if a speaker has relatively flat FR, somewhat uniform directivity and is setup properly in space, there is no reason that it will not image well or give a nice soundstage.
How wide that soundstage will be will depend on many things.
Now, why friend's loudspeaker images poorly is very hard to tell when we don't know what speaker it is.
Can OP share speaker brands that they compared?

BTW, I also had Thiel CS3.6, but only for 8 months or so. Those were praised in the press for their time aligned drivers and imaging.
 
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gn77b

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It seems that there is a belief that imaging is a separate quality of loudspeakers.
I think that if a speaker has relatively flat FR, somewhat uniform directivity and is setup properly in space, there is no reason that it will not image well or give a nice soundstage.
How wide that soundstage will be will depend on many things.
Now, why friend's loudspeaker images poorly is very hard to tell when we don't know what speaker it is.
Can OP share speaker brands that they compared?

BTW, I also had Thiel CS3.6, but only for 8 months or so. Those were praised in the press for their time aligned drivers and imaging.
I have serious reasons not to disclose the models.

1. As I said, friend's speakers are made by a company that's totally unknown to me. If it hadn't been for my friend, I would not know the brand existed. As a matter of fact I can't even recall the name exactly without looking it up or asking him.

2. If I revealed my speakers which come from a known brand it would give way to speculation. Possibly from people who've never heard them. If you read the whole thread you saw that some user didn't believe me when I said we saw an amp being driven into thermal shut down after ~10 minutes of listening at average-high volume with 83dB w/m speakers. I don't want to give strangers reasons to shit on my accounts of real life experiences so that they can feel better about themselves.

All I will say is that his are 2-way floorstanders (I think they are transmission lines, can't tell from the outside but likely since there's no cylindrical port but a rectangular opening at the bottom) with 6'' mid-bass drivers and the typical 1'' silk dome tweeter. Mine are 2-way, bass-reflex, large stand-mounts, same types of drivers except the mid-bass is 8''. His have a more detailed sound (with few tracks I prefer his but not overall) but lack adequate bass and the sound seems to come from a wall. Mine have better bass and the sound is projected behind the speakers, depth being reproduced way better.
 

audio2design

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It seems that there is a belief that imaging is a separate quality of loudspeakers.
I think that if a speaker has relatively flat FR, somewhat uniform directivity and is setup properly in space, there is no reason that it will not image well or give a nice soundstage.
How wide that soundstage will be will depend on many things.
Now, why friend's loudspeaker images poorly is very hard to tell when we don't know what speaker it is.
Can OP share speaker brands that they compared?

BTW, I also had Thiel CS3.6, but only for 8 months or so. Those were praised in the press for their time aligned drivers and imaging.

In the sweet spot, imaging, true imaging, i.e. recreating what is on the source material, is a factor of on-axis frequency response, equal on-axis frequency response between both channels, equal phase response between channels up to about 1500Hz, lack of significant rapid phase shift from 200-1500Hz (more debatable), keeping distortion under control, speaker width (angle), speaker distance (if driver integration comes into play), and importantly, keeping the level of reflections low especially under 6KHz (but not <200Hz). ....... That won't guarantee you will get what the person making the recording intended, but you will get an accurate representation of the "image" that is in the recording.

Will you like it? No idea. I am not you. Many, probably a majority will give up a bit of imaging accuracy for wider perceived soundstage, i.e. sound outside the speakers, but that is artificial, so you need to accept that it is artificial. The greater the level of direct sound to reflected sound, the better the imaging accuracy, but at the expense of other qualities most people like.

Smooth off-axis response will widen the potential sweet-spot, and allow, if desired, less raking of the angle, again allowing a wider sweet spot. In an untreated or lightly treated room it will also reduce room response peaks and valleys, which will just sound bad, and also in an untreated or lightly treated room, will effect "imaging", or "sound-stage".

Most speakers without major flaws, operating in an area of lower distortion, equalized, in an absorptive room, will image accurately. When you move away from an absorptive room, and reflections come into play, and you need to balanced direct/room response for equalization, then things get much more difficult.

When you look at things like open-baffle, dipoles, and line arrays, they don't inherently image better, they either enhance a quality that people like, or they "fix" an issue in untreated rooms. Open-baffles tend to have less side-wall reflections. Dipoles as well. Then they add in euphonic reflections that people like, that sense of space, whether it was on the recording or not. Line arrays reduce ceiling and floor reflections and provide a closer to 1/R drop in response versus 1/R^2 drop in response from about 500Hz and up (for typical floor to ceiling). That helps with untreated floors and ceilings but also improved sizes of the sweet spot.

No magic, just science, and all relates directly to how we perceive location.
 
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gn77b

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Other than the attitude of the op, this is the other reason why I have not responded much in this thread. I could tell you exactly how to get accurate imaging, at least faithful to what is on the recording this is in most cases mixed near-field in a somewhat treated space, but not exclusively. Would you be happy with the result? 50/50.
You are right. Upon profound introspection I came to understand I'm an awful human being for not tiptoeing when a stranger on the internet says I'm lying. I'm willing to be guided towards enlightenment.
 

audio2design

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I have serious reasons not to disclose the models.

I need you to comment on what speakers will help my friend, since his current ones don't cut it, but I can't tell you what his current speakers are. His friend, the radio guy thinks so too, and I think they don't have depth. I think my speakers image better no matter the room. A mystery amp made a different set of speakers sound better, but I can't tell you the amp, but I think it is relevant information.

What speakers does your friend have? Oh, I can't tell you that. What speaker do you have? Oh, I can't tell you that.



Excuse my sarcasm, but I suggest you buy speakers that are the color blue, because with the information you have provided, that is about as relevant as any other information I am going to give you other than some grossly sweeping generalities which I did above and others did before, whether you choose to accept those or not. This is not Inner Ear, or Analog Planet, or Audiogon, or even Stereophile where all kinds of nonsense explanations are made up because the authors have not the first clue how we perceive position, nor how the acoustics of a room, or speaker design impact that. Good day.
 

Joecarrow

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Even Floyd Toole doesn't have much to say on the subject of stereo imaging so not sure there is any answer that can be backed up with hard science.

IME most competently designed speakers will image reasonably well assuming they are set up properly and the listener is sat on axis.

The best I have heard for imaging are the Linkwitz LX521 but they are not a commercial design, you must build them or commission a build. They need a fair bit of space between them and the side wall, although that will help improve the imaging of most speakers too.

Another tip is not to have anything in between the speakers (racks, furniture etc) unless it is sat back from the plane of the drivers.

Would help if we knew the make and model of the speakers currently being used. if they are a disaster of a design then the finger points there. If not it's the way they are being set up. Or possibly the amp cannot drive them properly, which will screw the sound six ways from Sunday.
It's not cheap, but you can just order a pair of LX521 now: https://linkwitz.store/

I have found that by rotating the baffle you can get them closer to the side wall than is strictly recommended, however there's no flexibility on maintaining minimum space to the front wall. They absolutely do need that front wall space.
 
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gn77b

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I need you to comment on what speakers will help my friend, since his current ones don't cut it, but I can't tell you what his current speakers are. His friend, the radio guy thinks so too, and I think they don't have depth. I think my speakers image better no matter the room. A mystery amp made a different set of speakers sound better, but I can't tell you the amp, but I think it is relevant information.

What speakers does your friend have? Oh, I can't tell you that. What speaker do you have? Oh, I can't tell you that.



Excuse my sarcasm, but I suggest you buy speakers that are the color blue, because with the information you have provided, that is about as relevant as any other information I am going to give you other than some grossly sweeping generalities which I did above and others did before, whether you choose to accept those or not. This is not Inner Ear, or Analog Planet, or Audiogon, or even Stereophile where all kinds of nonsense explanations are made up because the authors have not the first clue how we perceive position, nor how the acoustics of a room, or speaker design impact that. Good day.
You are not the gatekeeper of this forum. You are not the official spokesperson of this forum.

OK, I'll make a concession just to see where this goes. I had to search a chat since my friend is not online. The company is called MC Systems. I had to use google images to get the model name. It's M3. And look, there's even a blue one, although my friend's are black: https://www.marktplaats.nl/v/audio-tv-en-foto/luidsprekers/m1768910572-mc-systems-m3

OK. What happens now?
 
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gn77b

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For whatever reason over the years I've generally observed in various AV forums that discussions started by someone looking for speakers for someone else rather than themselves have a greater tendency to generate confusion.
I'll fix that for you:

I've generally observed in various AV forums that discussions have a great tendency to generate confusion.
 

eddantes

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You are not the gatekeeper of this forum. You are not the official spokesperson of this forum.

OK, I'll make a concession just to see where this goes. I had to search a chat since my friend is not online. The company is called MC Systems. I had to use google images to get the model name. It's M3. And look, there's even a blue one, although my friend's are black: https://www.marktplaats.nl/v/audio-tv-en-foto/luidsprekers/m1768910572-mc-systems-m3

OK. What happens now?

Well... the MFG publishes no data and I can't find 3rd party measurement for any of their product. Fair to say - any assesment that would be meaningful is ... unlikely.
 
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