Speakers in a reflective room

[bond00777]

I have a pair of Q Acoustic Concept 50 speakers that sounded fantastic in my last house. Recently moved and the new room is much different and the speakers now have emphasized high-end, reduced mid-range and reduced bass.

My room is 14x13 with a 85" TV in the middle of the speakers. The right wall has two 70H x 30W windows, the left wall has a closet with doors, and other two walls are drywall. There are three large home theatre seats near the back wall.

I started by trying to add sound panels behind the speakers and on the back wall. Nailing the first reflection point is complicated by the windows and closet door. What I did helped, but no where near where I want it.

Since I am married, I can only do so much to the room and the layout is obviously not ideal (or close to it)

Now I am thinking of other options. First, using full DIRAC to see what it could do in the room. Option 2, replacing the speakers with something with a more narrow dispersion. I can add a subwoofer to assist with the low end.

I have read that the KEF R3 Meta has less dispersion due to the mid/tweeter driver and how they use it. Ironically I always found that speaker to be a bit bright when I auditioned it.

Appreciate and thoughts/ideas.

 

[Chrispy]

How about general room/floor furnishings/window coverings? Whatcha got ?

 

[bond00777]

How about general room/floor furnishings/window coverings? Whatcha got ?

Floor is hardwood with a 8 x 10 carpet on it (covers the floor to the chairs). Windows have powered roller blinds.

 

[BJL]

I have a pair of Q Acoustic Concept 50 speakers that sounded fantastic in my last house. Recently moved and the new room is much different and the speakers now have emphasized high-end, reduced mid-range and reduced bass.

My room is 14x13 with a 85" TV in the middle of the speakers. The right wall has two 70H x 30W windows, the left wall has a closet with doors, and other two walls are drywall. There are three large home theatre seats near the back wall.

I started by trying to add sound panels behind the speakers and on the back wall. Nailing the first reflection point is complicated by the windows and closet door. What I did helped, but no where near where I want it.

Since I am married, I can only do so much to the room and the layout is obviously not ideal (or close to it)

Now I am thinking of other options. First, using full DIRAC to see what it could do in the room. Option 2, replacing the speakers with something with a more narrow dispersion. I can add a subwoofer to assist with the low end.

I have read that the KEF R3 Meta has less dispersion due to the mid/tweeter driver and how they use it. Ironically I always found that speaker to be a bit bright when I auditioned it.

Appreciate and thoughts/ideas.

My stereo system is in a room where the speakers are directly facing a wall of glass doors. Dirac took care of the problem nicely. I believe that is the least intrusive way to fix the problem you describe, and I expect that you will be pleased with the result.

 

[sigbergaudio]

I would add all the absorbtion you can while maintaining the peace, could you perhaps add some white panels to the ceiling? Beyond that something with Dirac or even simple tone controls/EQ could help by tilting down the top end.

 

[Daverz]

I have a pair of Q Acoustic Concept 50 speakers that sounded fantastic in my last house. Recently moved and the new room is much different and the speakers now have emphasized high-end, reduced mid-range and reduced bass.

My room is 14x13 with a 85" TV in the middle of the speakers. The right wall has two 70H x 30W windows, the left wall has a closet with doors, and other two walls are drywall. There are three large home theatre seats near the back wall.

I started by trying to add sound panels behind the speakers and on the back wall. Nailing the first reflection point is complicated by the windows and closet door. What I did helped, but no where near where I want it.

Since I am married, I can only do so much to the room and the layout is obviously not ideal (or close to it)

Now I am thinking of other options. First, using full DIRAC to see what it could do in the room. Option 2, replacing the speakers with something with a more narrow dispersion. I can add a subwoofer to assist with the low end.

I have read that the KEF R3 Meta has less dispersion due to the mid/tweeter driver and how they use it. Ironically I always found that speaker to be a bit bright when I auditioned it.

Appreciate and thoughts/ideas.

Were the listening chairs against a wall in the old house?

For a listening position near a back wall, Floyd Toole recommends panels of at least 6 inches thickness on the back wall "covering a significant area behind, beside, and above the listener's head." (Sound Reproduction, 4th ed, section 13.6). That could get pretty expensive unless you DIY.

 

[Hear Here]

I wonder if your speakers are the best TYPE for your room. Have you considered alternatives such as electrostatic (probably not your best choice) or more likely horns? These are far more directional and the room's features seem to have less detrimental effect on music that's generated by horns. My own room is difficult with acres of curved glass walling and low ceiling height. I find that my horns offer a pretty convincing sound throughout the frequency range and that Dirac does more harm than good, so I select No Filter. The sound from horns can be pretty impressive, though they have a small sweet spot if set up for best stereo imaging, for which they cannot be beaten. I accept this small sweet spot disadvantage as their plus points heavily outweigh their negative ones in my room.

 

[Bjorn]

The clue is do treatment that looks good and which is quite possible.

A speaker like KEF R3 doesn't really have a narrow dispersion. The directivity needs to be considerably narrower for a big change. A narrow vertical dispersion is also IMO far more important than what most think.

 

[bond00777]

Were the listening chairs against a wall in the old house?

For a listening position near a back wall, Floyd Toole recommends panels of at least 6 inches thickness on the back wall "covering a significant area behind, beside, and above the listener's head." (Sound Reproduction, 4th ed, section 13.6). That could get pretty expensive unless you DIY.

Listening position in the old house was the same, but the room was much larger with ceilings that went up to 13 feet and were angled. Room itself was 21 feet wide and 15 feet deep. It was also carpeted and only had one window which was away from the speakers. I chose the Q Acoustics since they sounded so good in that room.

 

[bond00777]

I wonder if your speakers are the best TYPE for your room. Have you considered alternatives such as electrostatic (probably not your best choice) or more likely horns? These are far more directional and the room's features seem to have less detrimental effect on music that's generated by horns. My own room is difficult with acres of curved glass walling and low ceiling height. I find that my horns offer a pretty convincing sound throughout the frequency range and that Dirac does more harm than good, so I select No Filter. The sound from horns can be pretty impressive, though they have a small sweet spot if set up for best stereo imaging, for which they cannot be beaten. I accept this small sweet spot disadvantage as their plus points heavily outweigh their negative ones in my room.

I visited a dealer and listed to some Martin Logan electrostatics. I could tell by listening to them and how direct they were that they would be a better solution. The problem with them is they want 5 feet of space from the wall to the front of the speaker. Otherwise I would have tried them - they are a unique experience. How far are your from the wall and which electrostatics do you have?

 

[bond00777]

The clue is do treatment that looks good and which is quite possible.

A speaker like KEF R3 doesn't really have a narrow dispersion. The directivity needs to be considerably narrower for a big change. A narrow vertical dispersion is also IMO far more important than what most think.

Do you know which brand tend to focus on narrow dispersion? Sadly audio dealers are pretty clueless on this.

 

[Hear Here]

I visited a dealer and listed to some Martin Logan electrostatics. I could tell by listening to them and how direct they were that they would be a better solution. The problem with them is they want 5 feet of space from the wall to the front of the speaker. Otherwise I would have tried them - they are a unique experience. How far are your from the wall and which electrostatics do you have?

The trouble with Martin Logan speakers in my listening room is that they are placed far too far forward from the wall behind them. The left speaker is 12 ft from a curved floor-to-ceiling glass wall and the right speaker is 15+ ft forward from the wall. Therefore, virtually none of the 50% of these speakers' energy that is projected backwards is harvested by the wall. That's the reason (I've concluded) that MLs don't suit me room. I have learnt since that a space of 4 to 6 ft from a reflective surface would allow these speakers to perform at their best. Fortunately, horn speakers are very much less fussy about their position in relation to nearby wall so they perform well in my room – but they still need great care in setting up – toe-in, tilt, etc.

 

[Arindal]

Do you know which brand tend to focus on narrow dispersion?

Dispersion not only has to be narrow under reverberant conditions, but also more or less similar over a vast frequency range from upper midrange to treble. Narrow treble dispersion alone (like some horn-loaded concepts are offering it) would not help, as risk is high you get dominant midrange reverb in this case.

Which compromise in terms of speaker size and budget are you willing to accept? Would try something like Perlisten, Spatial Audio or D&D.

 

[Soniclife]

Have you measured or tried DSP yet? I would have a good play with this before looking at speakers, you need to know the problem you are trying to fix before looking for a solution.

 

[Mort]

I listen to my point source at 5 feet in a reverberant room with them toed in. It reduces reflections. I get stunning clarity in a room that's got a lot of glass.

 

[bond00777]

Have you measured or tried DSP yet? I would have a good play with this before looking at speakers, you need to know the problem you are trying to fix before looking for a solution.

Doing that today with Dirac.

 

[Bjorn]

Do you know which brand tend to focus on narrow dispersion? Sadly audio dealers are pretty clueless on this.

Difficult to give advices without knowing the budget and size you can live with. Horn speaker for instance become very large to achieve a broadband barrow dispersion and that means also a high cost.

Electrostatic speakers are very narrow vertically and get narrower horizontally as the frequency goes up, but send all energy backwards and are limited in dynamics.
The Vera Audio Coherence 12 was designed to be narrower vertically but is broad horizontally up to 5000 Hz. Overall though, they are much easier to integrate compared to most speakers.

 

[bond00777]

Difficult to give advices without knowing the budget and size you can live with. Horn speaker for instance become very large to achieve a broadband barrow dispersion and that means also a high cost.

Electrostatic speakers are very narrow vertically and get narrower horizontally as the frequency goes up, but send all energy backwards and are limited in dynamics.
The Vera Audio Coherence 12 was designed to be narrower vertically but is broad horizontally up to 5000 Hz. Overall though, they are much easier to integrate compared to most speakers.

I'm willing to spend up to $6K for the speakers. I have been looking today at the ML XT F100 towers. They have some interesting dispersion and seem to be pretty forgiving for placement. I need to listen to them, easier said than done.

 

[Arindal]

I have been looking today at the ML XT F100 towers.

AMT loaded speaker is in general a good idea, but these seem to be pretty conventional in terms of midrange dispersion, which assumingly is too wide for a reverberant environment.

I'm willing to spend up to $6K for the speakers.

If you can live with more massive speakers, try Perlisten A3t. Not perfect, though, but pretty good compromise in terms of directivity. If you want smaller enclosure, maybe Klipsch Nines, but you really have to try both.

Doing that today with Dirac.

If you have unbalanced or dominant indirect soundfield, Dirac does not seem like a good idea, can even make things worse.

 

[Bjorn]

I'm willing to spend up to $6K for the speakers. I have been looking today at the ML XT F100 towers. They have some interesting dispersion and seem to be pretty forgiving for placement. I need to listen to them, easier said than done.

The ML XT F100 will only be somewhat narrow in the very highest frequencies vertically. Otherwise it's a wide dispersion speaker.

Based on your budget I would consider a used electrostatic speaker and combine it with a subwoofer and treatment of the front wall. The subwoofer should ideally be able to cross over as high as 140 Hz, in order to minimize the dynamic drawbacks with the electrostatic speaker.
But you would need to treat the front wall with fairly broadband absorbtion to place the speaker close to the wall.