Speakers for BACCH

[hvbias]

The one thing that has kept me more on the sidelines with getting the most out of BACCH is their suggestion to use very narrow directivity speakers like horns, electrostats, and dipoles in order to get higher to maximum crosstalk cancellation. As someone that is likely going to be using my next all out system in a shared living room I want to move away from these technologies and stick with speakers built with conventional drive units or at most something "exotic" like coax drivers or using compression drivers just for the midrange/treble.

The other reason is I question how objectively good many of these designs are, particularly with horns when they are built in a more living room friendly form factor ala smaller Avant-Garde or Acapella, the measurements don't look so good. Others like JBL M2 or 4167 are not all that narrow directivity.

Given how much can be achieved with DSP I thought I'd start this thread to get discussion to see what others are doing and what could be done.

 

[Keith_W]

Well, you are going to have to compromise somewhere. If you want the most from BACCH, you will need:

- narrow directivity speakers
- reduction of side wall reflections as much as possible. Set up your speakers on the long wall, and consider room treatment of the side walls.

The problem with narrow directivity speakers is that it's not conducive to listening at any position other than the sweet spot.

 

[tifune]

The problem with narrow directivity speakers is that it's not conducive to listening at any position other than the sweet spot.

Definitely true, although BACCH only works well for one person. Maybe it kind of works for 2, Im skeptical but I've never tried. UBACCH enables it's effect based on the measurements of one MLP and B4M can perform head tracking which definitely wouldn't work with 2 people. The good news, at least with uBACCH, is that it usually doesn't hurt anything even if you can't get it optimally dialed in.

OP, Is it uBACCH or B4MAC? Based on what you're saying I suspect the Reflector Audio Square Two would work well; admittedly i have never had the chance to try them myself. For bigger budgets, cardioid designs help IME. B4M works down to 50Hz, im not sure about uBACCH. I use D&D 8C with B4M and I've yet to hear any 2ch system that I like more.

 

[Sir Sanders Zingmore]

I use D&D 8C

This is exactly what I was going to suggest (without knowing the OP's budget of course) as probably a very good compromise

 

[hvbias]

Definitely true, although BACCH only works well for one person. Maybe it kind of works for 2, Im skeptical but I've never tried. UBACCH enables it's effect based on the measurements of one MLP and B4M can perform head tracking which definitely wouldn't work with 2 people. The good news, at least with uBACCH, is that it usually doesn't hurt anything even if you can't get it optimally dialed in.

OP, Is it uBACCH or B4MAC? Based on what you're saying I suspect the Reflector Audio Square Two would work well; admittedly i have never had the chance to try them myself. For bigger budgets, cardioid designs help IME. B4M works down to 50Hz, im not sure about uBACCH. I use D&D 8C with B4M and I've yet to hear any 2ch system that I like more.

BACCH4Mac was my interest as I'd like to go as non-compromise as possible without buying BACCH's proprietary hardware (i.e., BACCH-SP) as I can do that in my own hardware/speakers.

When I mentioned DSP in my post I was thinking of speakers like D&D where you can adjust directivity. Surely we can design a speaker using DSP that is very narrow directivity and doesn't require resorting to horns, electrostats, or dipoles. And by we I mean a collective we designing something, ala the ASR Directiva.

(side note: Safari really doesn't like the spelling of BACCH, I've had to correct it every time!)

 

[tifune]

When I mentioned DSP in my post I was thinking of speakers like D&D where you can adjust directivity.

If you're going to buy their hardware, you're presumably not too budget-conscious so D&D are good if you're in a hurry, AsciLab C8C+BX8C if you can wait a few months. The only speakers I can think of where you can "adjust" directivity (might help if you clarify that), it's primarily in the bass region. AsciLab BX8C or Genelec W371. The big $ B&O units supposedly have such a feature

 

[hvbias]

If you're going to buy their hardware, you're presumably not too budget-conscious so D&D are good if you're in a hurry, AsciLab C8C+BX8C if you can wait a few months. The only speakers I can think of where you can "adjust" directivity (might help if you clarify that), it's primarily in the bass region. AsciLab BX8C or Genelec W371. The big $ B&O units supposedly have such a feature

I'm not budget conscious, I recently bought Genelec 8341a to use as computer speakers I was thinking about Kii 3 that allow you to adjust directivity. The D&D 8c are truly exceptional speakers but the directivity still looks decently wide? If it's possible to achieve 16-18+ dB crosstalk cancellation then it seems like it would be superb for BACCH? In which case why are they suggesting something like Sanders electrostats?

 

[prerich]

My Whispers are perfect for u-Bacch. The design eliminates most reflections from the floor and side walls and has a controlled radiation pattern. They are said to be cardiod/dipole design. I'm hearing things overhead and behind my head. Not sure if the engineer wanted the music to sound like that, but it sounds beautiful. It's like being surrounded by different sounds. Blindfold yourself and you could swear that you could touch certain instruments.

 

[tifune]

I'm not budget conscious, I recently bought Genelec 8341a to use as computer speakers I was thinking about Kii 3 that allow you to adjust directivity. The D&D 8c are truly exceptional speakers but the directivity still looks decently wide? If it's possible to achieve 16-18+ dB crosstalk cancellation then it seems like it would be superb for BACCH? In which case why are they suggesting something like Sanders electrostats?

I have the Kii 3, too, and I'm not aware of any option to change directivity. Hopefully I haven't been missing it this whole time?

I don't know exactly why they recommend Sanders, but my 8C's at 75cm have 20dB cancellation In my right and 13dB in my left (room placement issue).

 

[hvbias]

I have the Kii 3, too, and I'm not aware of any option to change directivity. Hopefully I haven't been missing it this whole time?

I don't know exactly why they recommend Sanders, but my 8C's at 75cm have 20dB cancellation In my right and 13dB in my left (room placement issue).

My mistake, I thought they could do this. I even auditioned them with this in mind

 

[Duke]

The problem with narrow directivity speakers is that it's not conducive to listening at any position other than the sweet spot.

UNLESS you use a time-intensity trading set-up with narrow-pattern speakers which work well in that configuration, in which case you can end up with an unusually wide listening area.

But that's probably still a compromise relative to a BACCH-optimized system and set-up. The Sanders electrostats have an extremely narrow radiation pattern which works very well with the BACCH system.

 

[DoctorRobert]

Don't have KEFs a relatively narrow directivity?
And a question: As I understand it, BACCH creates a better separation between left and right. Can the same effect not be achieved by putting your speakers further apart? In office setup, I am (can be) closer to my speakers as they are to each other. And I like the result. (They happen to be KEFs.)

 

[sweetsounds]

Don't have KEFs a relatively narrow directivity?
And a question: As I understand it, BACCH creates a better separation between left and right. Can the same effect not be achieved by putting your speakers further apart? In office setup, I am (can be) closer to my speakers as they are to each other. And I like the result. (They happen to be KEFs.)

No. BACCH ensures that the sound from the right speaker can't be heard by the left ear (or it is canceled to be precise) and vice versa.
This is called cross-talk cancellation.

You can reproduce the effect by putting a king size mattress in front of your nose extending towards the speaker plane.
And there are people doing that

A wider stereo separation gives a wider sound stage until the phantom image effect breaks down.

 

[hvbias]

No. BACCH ensures that the sound from the right speaker can't be heard by the left ear (or it is canceled to be precise) and vice versa.
This is called cross-talk cancellation.

You can reproduce the effect by putting a king size mattress in front of your nose extending towards the speaker plane.
And there are people doing that

A wider stereo separation gives a wider sound stage until the phantom image effect breaks down.

With how much I paid for my last king size mattress it is cheaper to get a BACCH4Mac Audiophile+

 

[Dan]

I have Kef r3. XTC at 9 and 6 in a small but decently treated room. I absolutely love the sound but I think I can get better. I’m getting some 4” absorption from gik to put on the front wall behind the speakers and see if that makes a difference. I’m also looking at Janszen speakers which are used in BACCH demos and I think the prof uses them as well. Doesn’t solve the off mlp issue though