Speakers for an untreated room with good transient response for mixing?

[RexrothPigeon]

I brought the Kali's into the studio and they still have the transient response problem sounding smeared.

Did you set them up with Dirac or Trinnov or REW or similar? bc it's the room, even in the studio

 

[Jiraya369]

Mixing in an untreated room = headphones.

worst advice ever, if one gets a UMIK-1 and can turn down room modes/doesnt have the worst room ever, they can get a good response.

 

[dfuller]

worst advice ever, if one gets a UMIK-1 and can turn down room modes/doesnt have the worst room ever, they can get a good response.

There's still way too much reverb. Yeah, yeah "if the reflections have the same tonality..." that's great for home listening, but we're designing in all the spatial cues. The best rooms have very little reverberation past 200-300ms.

 

[Jiraya369]

There's still way too much reverb. Yeah, yeah "if the reflections have the same tonality..." that's great for home listening, but we're designing in all the spatial cues. The best rooms have very little reverberation past 200-300ms.

the imaging and tonality adjustments on a speaker are universal, especially on a neutral one. The edits you do WILL translate to everything, assuming the speaker is neutral.

Headphone mixing will make you put too much or too little reverb. Even on my Adam D3V at 0.5m i was able to put in pitch perfect reverb that translated well to my laptop speakers and my iems/headphones. And with my Ascilab C6B at 1.2m I can do the same whilst enjoying deeper bass.

And that's the thing, the only reason you'd want an iem/headphone is to fix bass issues but you can get shockingly good results till 100 hz or even lower if your room allows it. I have a big dip at 90 hz but my mixes translate well still, just that i need to reference with my headphones for 50 hz and lower stuff.

 

[Tito]

well if you want to dial in your compression and eq ..planars are speedier and thusly greater accuracy considering transient response than your lp6 in that nontreated room.
in germany you can get ananda nano 329 euros , or lower options sundara /refurbished 129 euros. fiio ft1 pro 179 euros..

steven slates new planars coupled with his technology could be really something else.. i think everything will cost around 700 euros.

 

[Marin]

Ok people, we're all here because we love music and the technology behind it.
We also love science and we love our graphs.
So why not start with free app called KRK audio tool, that has tool caled phase and it gives you pulsating sound around 600-800hz sound and download app called sound oscilloscope and see for your self how impulse of your speaker sound....
Here is mine..

Everybody can do it, you can even use Bluetooth doesn't make a difference for for this purpose .... and it doesn't matter bad mic in your phone it is just impulse so time domine...

 

[Marin]

super fast attack of the transients

Yes but what driver?
I think you're describing a slow woofer driver who continues oscillating after the signal has passed?
If that is the case look for a driver with good MMS parametar around 8 to 10.

. I can mix once a week in a treated studio with Neumann KH 420

Yes we all been there ignorance is blessing sometimes...

 

[iTzPrime]

It's almost certainly your room more than anything else, the Kalis are fine in the transient response department.



You're right, there isn't. That's what a minimum phase 3 way does.

No they smear them

 

[iTzPrime]

Did you set them up with Dirac or Trinnov or REW or similar? bc it's the room, even in the studio

Yes

 

[RexrothPigeon]

Yes

Ah, so you have in-room measurements you can share? There are people here who can arrive at seriously accurate diagnoses if given the right graphs

 

[Jiraya369]

No they smear them

room modes leading to "bloated" and "smeary" sound.

Buy a umik-1 and measure. I had the same problem and i was able to fix it by ear with some light eq. I can give you a Genelec 8361A and it'll sound bloated too.

Or maybe you're looking for an excuse to buy new speakers, in which case lol good luck "upgrading"

 

[Arindal]

Mixing in an untreated room = headphones.

That would not help to judge imaging, depth-of-field, reverb, ambience, localization properties and bass character of the mix. In many cases, loudspeakers are mandatory.

I found the Kali LP 6 having a pretty smeared transient response.

Could you describe more precisely what you mean by that, which instruments/sounds in the mix are mostly affected, in which frequency bands you hear this, or could link to exemplary recording pls?

Could make a wild guess that boomy bass, slow decay and room modes are contributing to this problem, but this is not precise enough to understand what should be altered.

What spaker do you think would perform the best in my unfortunate scenario?

It depends a bit on the actual frequency bands in which you are having problems and what is your listening distance. From own experience I would try something like a MEG RL921k or KSD C-100 Reference. If you listen in a nearfield scenario, a smaller model like KSD C-5 Reference would be advantageous, but you have to make a sacrifice regarding bass extension (for electronic music or anything with powerful beats, I would not recommend a compact cardioid model).

That's what a minimum phase 3 way does.

So maybe a linear phase model, closed box bass concept or cardioid would be a better choice if the OP´s description of ´Smeared transients´ originate from bass reflex?

if one gets a UMIK-1 and can turn down room modes/doesnt have the worst room ever, they can get a good response.

That is unlikely to happen if the monitors already come with inherent transient problems in the bass bands hence subjectively ´slow, boomy, delayed, overly fat bass´. EQ almost never really solves any decay or room mode issues, just makes it less annoying. For a mixing environment, particularly when judging bass beats is an aim, an EQ´d version can make things even more difficult and lead to misjudgments in the mix. I guess it is obvious why this is the case.

Vertical lobing is definitely of less importance than horizontal errors. The KH120 II is fine.

Don´t quite understand how you get to this conclusion and what you base your verdict ´definitely´ on. As the boundaries causing vertical reflections, like floor, ceiling, mixing console, desk or alike, are much closer to the loudspeaker and in the majority of cases offer a lesser degree of absorption, it is counterintuitive to think that vertical reflections are insignificant compared to horizontal ones. I would rather say the opposite is the case in a nearfield or untreated environment.

Have you used the KH120 or a similar concept for mixing in a nearfield environment, comparing them to true nearfield monitors? I have for years, in the old days when such 2-way concepts were kind of a standard, like the predecessor labelled K+H O110, as well as Genelec 1030A/1031A and Mackie HR624/824. Doing a direct A/B comparison to proper coaxial models was really an eye-opener for me, and I would never want to move back.

 

[iTzPrime]

That would not help to judge imaging, depth-of-field, reverb, ambience, localization properties and bass character of the mix. In many cases, loudspeakers are mandatory.



Could you describe more precisely what you mean by that, which instruments/sounds in the mix are mostly affected, in which frequency bands you hear this, or could link to exemplary recording pls?

Could make a wild guess that boomy bass, slow decay and room modes are contributing to this problem, but this is not precise enough to understand what should be altered.



It depends a bit on the actual frequency bands in which you are having problems and what is your listening distance. From own experience I would try something like a MEG RL921k or KSD C-100 Reference. If you listen in a nearfield scenario, a smaller model like KSD C-5 Reference would be advantageous, but you have to make a sacrifice regarding bass extension (for electronic music or anything with powerful beats, I would not recommend a compact cardioid model).



So maybe a linear phase model, closed box bass concept or cardioid would be a better choice if the OP´s description of ´Smeared transients´ originate from bass reflex?



That is unlikely to happen if the monitors already come with inherent transient problems in the bass bands hence subjectively ´slow, boomy, delayed, overly fat bass´. EQ almost never really solves any decay or room mode issues, just makes it less annoying. For a mixing environment, particularly when judging bass beats is an aim, an EQ´d version can make things even more difficult and lead to misjudgments in the mix. I guess it is obvious why this is the case.



Don´t quite understand how you get to this conclusion and what you base your verdict ´definitely´ on. As the boundaries causing vertical reflections, like floor, ceiling, mixing console, desk or alike, are much closer to the loudspeaker and in the majority of cases offer a lesser degree of absorption, it is counterintuitive to think that vertical reflections are insignificant compared to horizontal ones. I would rather say the opposite is the case in a nearfield or untreated environment.

Have you used the KH120 or a similar concept for mixing in a nearfield environment, comparing them to true nearfield monitors? I have for years, in the old days when such 2-way concepts were kind of a standard, like the predecessor labelled K+H O110, as well as Genelec 1030A/1031A and Mackie HR624/824. Doing a direct A/B comparison to proper coaxial models was really an eye-opener for me, and I would never want to move back.

So it is mostly the pick attack of guitars, the transient from a snare drum or the attack from a bass drum. I struggle immensly to judge how distortion affects them on these monitors. Not specific to a frequency range (and if so it is more in the mids-highs). I mostly mix modern metal ala Gojira. I find it super hard to judge the attack of the guitars.

Bass extension isn't as important to me, as I would use headphones for reference, I need to hear the transients/pick attack properly.

I have tried tons of EQs and measurements in different volumes. While it does sound better, it doesn't helped with the smeared transients.

 

[Juhazi]

Which ones have a super fast transient response? I haven't found a single headphone yet that offers this compared to speakers.

Sorry, but your claim is absurd. Any "not terrible" headphones are far superior in this regard to any kind of loudspeakers! And now you are asking for advice for speakers with good transients!

So you have budget 800€ per speaker, 1600 for pair and you want "fast transients" in nearfield. In what frequency band are your transients? How would the speakers be placed, listening distance, distance to reflecting surfaces including what is behind your speakers? Active or passive?

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[Jiraya369]

transient problems

how are you so sure they are there if this bloke doesnt even know about room modes?

 

[iTzPrime]

Sorry, but your claim is absurd. Any "not terrible" headphones are far superior in this regard to any kind of loudspeakers! And now you are asking for advice for speakers with good transients!

So you have budget 800€ per speaker, 1600 for pair and you want "fast transients" in nearfield. In what frequency band are your transients? How would the speakers be placed, listening distance, distance to reflecting surfaces including what is behind your speakers? Active or passive?

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Transients are pick attack of the guitar, snare drum hit and bass klick. So around 2.5-5.5khz. I find most headphones seem to blend the transients more than loudspeakers. At least that is what is sounds like. Speakers about 1m away from me around the PC. Behind the speakers is a wall. Active is possible

No I haven't heard the Adams I only heard the expensive Neumanns and they don't smear the transients in my eyes

 

[iTzPrime]

room modes leading to "bloated" and "smeary" sound.

Buy a umik-1 and measure. I had the same problem and i was able to fix it by ear with some light eq. I can give you a Genelec 8361A and it'll sound bloated too.

Or maybe you're looking for an excuse to buy new speakers, in which case lol good luck "upgrading"

I tried room correction for my Kali's both in the studio and in my house. EQ doesn't change it. The Neumanns in the Studio do not show this problem. my Kali's do.

 

[Arindal]

but your claim is absurd. Any "not terrible" headphones are far superior in this regard to any kind of loudspeakers!

When we are talking about the subjective bass drum kick, it is actually not as absurd. As these involve a good amount of structure-born vibration, particularly at higher levels, headphones would not be a sufficient replacement.

it is mostly the pick attack of guitars, the transient from a snare drum or the attack from a bass drum. I struggle immensly to judge how distortion affects them on these monitors.

Bass drum kick might be affected by boomy, subjectively ´slow´ bass, room modes or alike, so reducing this effect helps a lot.

Guitar picking and snare drum attack I cannot really imagine to be deteriorated to such a degree simply by phase/timing issues. A potential explanation might be a tonal problem in the room, with the subjectively slow bands in the spectrum masking the overtones which are responsible for giving the subjective attack. Just a theory.

I mostly mix modern metal ala Gojira. I find it super hard to judge the attack of the guitars.

My experience with mixing and mastering metal is very limited, but from evaluating monitors, I kind of get an idea of your problem. There is a thin line between distorted guitars sounding either dull, midrange-heavy and lame and ´disappearing´ behind the mix, or sounding overly shrill and aggressive. A good monitor in my understanding needs to get a balance between the two extremes (I like to use some early 1990s metal to evaluate speakers), and maybe the Kali are just overly on the former side.

Try something like KSD, or if you want a bit more of brightness/brilliance, Focal or Eve monitors.

how are you so sure they are there if this bloke doesnt even know about room modes?

I am not sure, but if the problems, whatever is causing them, persists in the well-treated studio control room, I have a wild guess they are inherent to the loudspeakers this or that way, rendering them unsuitable for the purpose.

 

[Juhazi]

Transients are pick attack of the guitar, snare drum hit and bass klick. So around 2.5-5.5khz. I find most headphones seem to blend the transients more than loudspeakers. At least that is what is sounds like. Speakers about 1m away from me around the PC. Behind the speakers is a wall. Active is possible

No I haven't heard the Adams I only heard the expensive Neumanns and they don't smear the transients in my eyes

That is typical range of crossovers. So that range is very sensitive to vertical offset (angle) of the speaker. Most likely that is your problem with speakers. Coaxials like the Kali you tried are better in that regard

https://www.audioholics.com/bookshelf-speaker-reviews/adam-audio-t7v I have this and it sounds good, I can't hear the vertical problem... T7V is active but lacks the dsp that A series have.

 

[Matt_Holland]

Transients are pick attack of the guitar, snare drum hit and bass klick. So around 2.5-5.5khz. I find most headphones seem to blend the transients more than loudspeakers. At least that is what is sounds like. Speakers about 1m away from me around the PC. Behind the speakers is a wall. Active is possible

No I haven't heard the Adams I only heard the expensive Neumanns and they don't smear the transients in my eyes

Even an IEM as basic and low cost as the Truthear Gate will show the best loudspeakers a clean set of heals when it comes to lack of resonance (essentially what good transient response is, coupled with linear frequency response).

I’m wondering if what you perceive as good transient response is actually emphasis at certain frequencies. What some audiophiles call “leading edge definition”.