Speakers Are The Enemy

[Hear Here]

Dutch & Dutch 8c. I wouldn't call them "studio speakers" (in fact I reject that dichotomy entirely), but they are quite popular in studios, including mastering applications

I'd agree that Dutch & Dutch are great speakers but they are primarily designed for the consumer market. I notice they've more recently introduced a "Studio" version that has features that add to its suitability in small recording or mastering studios. I think of the likes of ATC and others that build black vinyl-covered boxes designed for that purpose primarily and the 8c Studio has adopted this design. I was rather hoping that D&D would introduce a bigger floor-standing speaker after the success of the 8c, but they seem to have gone in the other direction. I'm sure this will add more to their sales numbers, but wouldn't a big D&D with twin 10 or 12" drivers be a great addition to their range?

 

[Mart68]

I'd agree that Dutch & Dutch are great speakers but they are primarily designed for the consumer market. I notice they've more recently introduced a "Studio" version that has features that add to its suitability in small recording or mastering studios.

How do you specifically design a speaker 'for the consumer market'? Other than cosmetics?

 

[Tell]

No - music, whether from instruments or via speakers, sounds dire if played in an open field. Music needs an enclosed or partially enclosed space to sound realistic. Outdoor events, festivals, etc always put the performers on a stage with a reflective wall behind them.

I don't agree, I've been to many outdoor parties and festivals and the music always sound better there than inside.

Close to be perfect? Linear, no dynamic compression, superb dispersion, low distorsion? Nah, they don't exist. Full of compromises
Audio files can easily be 20-20.000hz perfection, but very few speakers can replicate this properly

What's "superb dispersion"? 30 degrees? 60? 90? 180? 360? Is the DI a slight slope up from the bass up to the treble or is it a straight line from 0-20kHz?

 

[Duke]

The perfect speaker is what the mastering engineer used.

That will most faithfully reproduce the recording as intended

That's a very good philosophy, and one which can be largely verified via measurements, which makes it especially attractive.

Another philosophy is that "a desirable speaker conveys the perception of experiencing a live performance." This too implies good measured performance but might even go beyond targeting "what the mastering engineer heard". For instance, prioritizing the live performance experience over the mastering engineer experience leaves the door open to upmixing a stereo recording and playing it through a multi-channel system.

... in practice, mastering studio speakers are unsuitable as domestic speakers, or at least are far from ideal. As one mastering engineer quipped "hi-fi speakers are meant to sound good ...., while studio monitors are meant to sound bad".

I think that statement is arguably applicable to mixing monitors, which are tools for detecting and correcting problems in the mix. To this end, two or more significantly different-sounding mixing monitors are often used during the process. Some high-end active monitors even have presets which mimic the characteristics of various lesser but considered-to-be-useful mixing monitors.

But I do not believe that statement applies to mastering monitors. Let me explain: One of the most important jobs, perhaps THE most important job, of the mastering monitor is to "impress the clients", with the "clients" being the musicians who are paying the big bucks for that studio to record, mix and master their music. When they show up and want to hear what their new album sounds like, you want them to be blown away by how incredibly good it sounds.

Rooms are the enemy. Speakers can be designed to be close to perfect, but rooms always mess it up. Your speakers would probably sound closer to the measured performance if you put your speakers in your backyard.

I think bad speaker/room interaction is commonly an "enemy", but I don't think rooms themselves are categorically "the enemy", at least not if spaciousness and envelopment are desirable attributes. My recollection is that Floyd Toole points out how good reflections provide the ear/brain system with multiple "looks", which aids in deciphering complex sounds. The phenomenon of soundstage widening due to the sidewall reflections requires sidewalls. And my observation has been that spectrally-correct in-room reflections can contribute to what might be called "timbral richness", which is one of the attributes of a good recital hall or concert hall.

I think it's possible to design a speaker to largely work "with the room" rather than "against the room", but that's not going to be the same speaker for each and every room, and definitely not for each and every set of priorities.

 

[Hear Here]

How do you specifically design a speaker 'for the consumer market'? Other than cosmetics?

Ask those brands that cater for both markets. There are several to choose from.

 

[Hear Here]

I don't agree, I've been to many outdoor parties and festivals and the music always sound better there than inside.

The alcohol at outdoor parties always makes music sound better

 

[Tell]

The alcohol at outdoor parties always makes music sound better

So also the alcohol is worse at indoors parties?

 

[MattHooper]

That's a very good philosophy, and one which can be largely verified via measurements, which makes it especially attractive.

Another philosophy is that "a desirable speaker conveys the perception of experiencing a live performance." This too implies good measured performance but might even go beyond targeting "what the mastering engineer heard". For instance, prioritizing the live performance experience over the mastering engineer experience leaves the door open to upmixing a stereo recording and playing it through a multi-channel system.



I think that statement is arguably applicable to mixing monitors, which are tools for detecting and correcting problems in the mix. To this end, two or more significantly different-sounding mixing monitors are often used during the process. Some high-end active monitors even have presets which mimic the characteristics of various lesser but considered-to-be-useful mixing monitors.

But I do not believe that statement applies to mastering monitors. Let me explain: One of the most important jobs, perhaps THE most important job, of the mastering monitor is to "impress the clients", with the "clients" being the musicians who are paying the big bucks for that studio to mix and master their music. When they show up and want to hear what their new album sounds like, you want them to be blown away by how incredibly good it sounds.



I think bad speaker/room interaction is commonly an "enemy", but I don't think rooms themselves are categorically "the enemy", at least not if spaciousness and envelopment are desirable attributes. My recollection is that Floyd Toole points out how good reflections provide the ear/brain system with multiple "looks", which aids in deciphering complex sounds. The phenomenon of soundstage widening due to the sidewall reflections requires sidewalls. And my observation has been that spectrally-correct in-room reflections can contribute to what might be called "timbral richness", which is one of the attributes of a good recital hall or concert hall.

I think it's possible to design a speaker to largely work "with the room" rather than "against the room", but that's not going to be the same speaker for each and every room, and definitely not for each and every set of priorities.

Top comment!

 

[Purité Audio]

Ask those brands that cater for both markets. There are several to choose from.

Transparent speakers are transparent wherever and whatever you use them for.
Keith

 

[Mart68]

Ask those brands that cater for both markets. There are several to choose from.

They put veneer on the domestic ones e.g ATC, PMC - but that's not changing the design. What else?

 

[dlaloum]

Rooms are the enemy. Speakers can be designed to be close to perfect, but rooms always mess it up. Your speakers would probably sound closer to the measured performance if you put your speakers in your backyard. And that brings up an important point: room with no speakers = no music. Speakers with no room = music.

Have I made my case?

Nah, even in a perfect environment, speakers will still measure between 0.5% and 10%+ THD... speakers that can measure at 0.5% THD are considered state of the art.... any electronic component that could only reach 0.5% THD would be considered pretty damn poor!!

Then the room just exacerbates it all.

 

[levimax]

Nah, even in a perfect environment, speakers will still measure between 0.5% and 10%+ THD... speakers that can measure at 0.5% THD are considered state of the art.... any electronic component that could only reach 0.5% THD would be considered pretty damn poor!!

Then the room just exacerbates it all.

.5% THD is inaudible when listening to music in most cases for most people. 10 dB to 20 dB room mode peaks are very audible to just about everyone in almost all cases.

 

[Keith_W]

I think bad speaker/room interaction is commonly an "enemy", but I don't think rooms themselves are categorically "the enemy", at least not if spaciousness and envelopment are desirable attributes.

It was meant to be a tongue in cheek comment which is what the was for. I guess humour doesn't translate well on a forum post!

 

[dlaloum]

It was meant to be a tongue in cheek comment which is what the was for. I guess humour doesn't translate well on a forum post!

Ahh - sorry... yeah, humour sometimes goes astray online!

 

[RexrothPigeon]

I'd agree that Dutch & Dutch are great speakers but they are primarily designed for the consumer market. I notice they've more recently introduced a "Studio" version that has features that add to its suitability in small recording or mastering studios.

You do not know what the 8C Studio version is. It's the exact same speaker but without the attractive wood and without streaming. It does not have "features that add to its suitability in small recording or mastering studios." It's okay not to know what you're talking about, but it's a lot less charming to pretend that you do.

 

[Hear Here]

Another philosophy is that "a desirable speaker conveys the perception of experiencing a live performance." This too implies good measured performance but might even go beyond targeting "what the mastering engineer heard". For instance, prioritizing the live performance experience over the mastering engineer experience leaves the door open to upmixing a stereo recording and playing it through a multi-channel system.

Yes, I'd generally agree with that but, for example you can't get speakers that convey a live performance in a more life-like way than a pair of high-quality horn speakers, but you rarely if ever find horn speakers in recording studios – or electrostatics for that matter.

Measured accuracy is a requirement of studio speakers, but not so in the domestic environment. It's more important that the excitement factor of the live performance is delivered by domestic speakers - the pleasure it gives to our ears and brains is more important that what the measuring mic may think!

 

[Hear Here]

They put veneer on the domestic ones e.g ATC, PMC - but that's not changing the design. What else?

Look for example at ATC's 200 litre capacity speakers - one is designed for the studio, the other for the home. It's not just the veneer that differs.

SCM200ASL Pro - ATC Loudspeakers

Overview Large format main monitor. 34mm soft dome tweeter. Twin full spec "SL" 12"/314mm bass drivers. ATC 75mm "Super Dome" mid driver. P4 rack-mount grounded source 850W class A/B amplifier. 6 year warranty.

atc.audio

SCM200ASLT - ATC Loudspeakers

25mm soft dome tweeter Twin, full spec "SL" 12"/314mm bass drivers ATC 75mm "Super Dome" mid driver Rack-mount ATC 4-way grounded source 850W P4 amplifier 6 year warranty Available Finishes Standard Veneers - Cherry, Walnut, Oak & Black Ash. Standard Paints - Satin Black, Satin White Premium...

atc.audio

Same driver compliment, same volume, same brand - but designed for different customer types.

Frankly, I would give floor space to either of these speakers but the Consumer one would be my preference.

 

[Mart68]

Look for example at ATC's 200 litre capacity speakers - one is designed for the studio, the other for the home. It's not just the veneer that differs.

SCM200ASL Pro - ATC Loudspeakers

Overview Large format main monitor. 34mm soft dome tweeter. Twin full spec "SL" 12"/314mm bass drivers. ATC 75mm "Super Dome" mid driver. P4 rack-mount grounded source 850W class A/B amplifier. 6 year warranty.

atc.audio

SCM200ASLT - ATC Loudspeakers

25mm soft dome tweeter Twin, full spec "SL" 12"/314mm bass drivers ATC 75mm "Super Dome" mid driver Rack-mount ATC 4-way grounded source 850W P4 amplifier 6 year warranty Available Finishes Standard Veneers - Cherry, Walnut, Oak & Black Ash. Standard Paints - Satin Black, Satin White Premium...

atc.audio

Same driver compliment, same volume, same brand - but designed for different customer types.

Frankly, I would give floor space to either of these speakers but the Consumer one would be my preference.

Probably pretty good, I like the 150s - but seems like they are identical except the domestic is floor standing - even the horizontal and vertical dispersion is the same? Behind a screen do you really think you could tell which is playing?

 

[Hear Here]

Probably pretty good, I like the 150s - but seems like they are identical except the domestic is floor standing - even the horizontal and vertical dispersion is the same? Behind a screen do you really think you could tell which is playing?

As I said earlier, I've owned an ATC studio monitor - their ATC 50 Active - back in about 2001, and I didn't like it. Far too "in-yer-face" such that I wanted to push it 20 ft further vaway. Quickly sold in favour of the Avantgarde Unos that had just been voted "Speaker of the Year" by Stereophile for what's worth. What a breath of fresh air after the ATC!

 

[Mart68]

As I said earlier, I've owned an ATC studio monitor - their ATC 50 Active - back in about 2001, and I didn't like it. Far too "in-yer-face" such that I wanted to push it 20 ft further vaway. Quickly sold in favour of the Avantgarde Unos that had just been voted "Speaker of the Year" by Stereophile for what's worth. What a breath of fresh air after the ATC!

It's good you found a speaker you like but it doesn't mean that you also found some universal truth about loudspeakers.

What I have suits me but I wouldn't claim they are for everyone even if they have the space and the cash.