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Speaker upgrade advice

Tremolo

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I have very old speakers (Paragon Acoustics Jubilee) that I like but miss bass. I really feel the need of something more full range even if I am not a basshead.
The specs and measurements from the manufacturer
IMG_20211128_0001.jpg

The REW response in my room (1/24 smoothing)

Paragon2.jpg

Is it worth keeping the speakers and maybe trying to integrate a subwoofer?
Or is it better to start from zero and buy new speakers?
I was considering Elac DBR62, KEF R3 or slim floorstanders like Elac DFR52 or KEF R5.
 

Jim Matthews

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That response curve looks pretty good.
If you like the presentation and get sufficient volume to satisfy you, a silk dome over a 6.5" woofer is tried and true.

Plenty of decent subs can cover 40 hZ to 200 hZ for cheap money, these days.

Here's a list with several less than $200 usd :

I've had the Monoprice, and it's adequate.
 

alex-z

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Definitely add a subwoofer, or ideally a pair for better in-room response. A pair of Monolith THX 10" will fill most rooms and put your -6dB point at 20Hz, rather than its current


The challenge with subwoofers is proper integration. You want to apply a high-pass filter to your speakers, so they aren't trying to play below 80Hz where they are incapable, and only adding distortion. With an AV receiver this is trivial, if you are using a stereo amp you likely need an external solution, such as miniDSP 2x4HD.

If you would like other sub options, check out this thread:

 
OP
Tremolo

Tremolo

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Thanks everybody! I like the Monolith thx, has balanced inputs (my amp has balanced pre out) and now is even at discount at Monolith Europe.
I have a stereo amp and I am not fond of the idea of adding a DSP, the 2x4 hd doesn't sport digital out, the shd studio is pretty but expensive.
But the in room response of my speakers seems to follow more or less naturally a 24db/oct 80 hz HP or am I wrong?

paragon3.jpg

What is going on between 80 and 120hz could be a problem for a proper sub integration?
Just in case, is it possible to buy or build an external analog high pass filter?
 

sweetchaos

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Please, please, please don't look at this affiliate top 8 picks list:
Sorry to say, but LifeWire has no clue about what they're talking about.
Don't throw money into the wind.
:facepalm:

My subwoofer comparison post shows you the top picks for any price point.
You're 100x better off using my spreadsheet, than looking at any top 10 lists you see online (especially since these affiliate lists are just a money grab).
 

alex-z

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Thanks everybody! I like the Monolith thx, has balanced inputs (my amp has balanced pre out) and now is even at discount at Monolith Europe.
I have a stereo amp and I am not fond of the idea of adding a DSP, the 2x4 hd doesn't sport digital out, the shd studio is pretty but expensive.
But the in room response of my speakers seems to follow more or less naturally a 24db/oct 80 hz HP or am I wrong?

View attachment 169175
What is going on between 80 and 120hz could be a problem for a proper sub integration?
Just in case, is it possible to buy or build an external analog high pass filter?

To properly integrate a subwoofer you need to high-pass filter the speakers. Your speakers have a natural acoustic rolloff, but are still trying to play those lower frequencies. This leads to increased inter-modulation distortion, and less power handling.

Hence why using a miniDSP 2x4HD as your DAC is an good solution. You also get the ability to apply EQ to each channel, so you can clean up those 80 and 120Hz peaks.

The miniDSP 4x10HD has digital output, plus balanced input/output support. It shouldn't make an audible difference, but if you want the balanced support to avoid ground loops, this would be the right choice.

 

Jim Matthews

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Please, please, please don't look at this affiliate top 8 picks list:
Sorry to say, but LifeWire has no clue about what they're talking about.
Don't throw money into the wind.
:facepalm:

My subwoofer comparison post shows you the top picks for any price point.
You're 100x better off using my spreadsheet, than looking at any top 10 lists you see online (especially since these affiliate lists are just a money grab).
Perhaps you could generate an abridged version.
 
Last edited:
OP
Tremolo

Tremolo

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I decided to order the Monolith thx 10 and wait for the miniDSP (a digital out version of the Flex will be avalaible later).
A dumb question: my amp doesn't have a lfe out, if I want to use balanced pre out to connect the subwoofer I guess I need a Y cable (stereo xlr pre out to mono xlr sub in). Right?
 

TimW

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I decided to order the Monolith thx 10 and wait for the miniDSP (a digital out version of the Flex will be avalaible later).
A dumb question: my amp doesn't have a lfe out, if I want to use balanced pre out to connect the subwoofer I guess I need a Y cable (stereo xlr pre out to mono xlr sub in). Right?
The Flex can be used to sum to mono and supply a signal to your subwoofers. However this may not allow you to use the volume control built into your amp. What amp do you have?
 

coonmanx

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Just wanted to say that I think you made a good choice by going with a subwoofer. I also have one system that has speakers with 6.5" woofers. The speakers themselves sound very nice but once I elevated them off the floor they were lacking in that bass punch. So I integrated a small 7 band EQ. That helps but still is not going to give me that real low end punch. The subwoofer will do that for you. It is a good solution.

BTW, I live on the third floor of an apartment building so having a lot of bass cranking all of the time is not really much of an option. So listening to those Scott S166 speakers with their 6.5" woofers and Philips tweeters is still an enjoyable thing without pissing off any neighbors. I am very aware of how much sound I am putting out and I even own a decibel meter. I have had issues previously with the neighbor below me who does not understand what it means to respect other neighbors. He got a visit from the cops one day. LOL.
 
OP
Tremolo

Tremolo

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The Flex can be used to sum to mono and supply a signal to your subwoofers. However this may not allow you to use the volume control built into your amp. What amp do you have?
Thank you for the reply and the help.
From the manufacturer site: "The balanced output of the ECI 3 can feed an additional power amplifier in a bi-amped set-up"
It means that I can use volume, isn't it?
6774_1800_0_5b7633976c.jpeg
 

TimW

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Thank you for the reply and the help.
From the manufacturer site: "The balanced output of the ECI 3 can feed an additional power amplifier in a bi-amped set-up"
It means that I can use volume, isn't it?
View attachment 169931
The Flex has 4 outputs and a volume control so it can be used as a preamplifier that divides the incoming signal up with separate crossovers for your mains and your subs. It can't do that if you only use two of its outputs to feed the amp and then use the preout of the amp to feed the sub. So you loose high-pass capability for your mains if you use the volume control and preouts built into your amp but you may not care. If the RCA outputs on that amp are also controlled by the volume then you could use them to feed the sub and it will do the mono summing.
 
OP
Tremolo

Tremolo

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The Monolith thx 10 arrived. This thing is really huge and heavy. You all gave me a good advice, never again without a subwoofer. I like what I ear, even if I am afraid the setup is far from optimal.
This is what I get from REW

sub-3db.jpg

It doesn't look pretty to me even if it doesn't sound so "boomy" as it looks.
Do I need a dsp to get a more even response in the bass?
 

MeZoX

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Good decision with the subs , that was the thing you needed the most for better enjoyment of music
 

thewas

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The Monolith thx 10 arrived. This thing is really huge and heavy. You all gave me a good advice, never again without a subwoofer. I like what I ear, even if I am afraid the setup is far from optimal.
This is what I get from REW

View attachment 171895
It doesn't look pretty to me even if it doesn't sound so "boomy" as it looks.
Do I need a dsp to get a more even response in the bass?
I see you use 19 filters, probably because you didn't smooth your response enough, var smoothing is recommended for EQ. Personally I would also put the the target curve higher and not fill the presence dip then, if you want you can upload or PM me the mdat file so I can make an EQ you could compare to your current one.
 
OP
Tremolo

Tremolo

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I see you use 19 filters, probably because you didn't smooth your response enough, var smoothing is recommended for EQ. Personally I would also put the the target curve higher and not fill the presence dip then, if you want you can upload or PM me the mdat file so I can make an EQ you could compare to your current one.
Thank you very much for your help but the filter numbers in the screenshoot are just a sim. I was curious of what REW could suggest but I did something wrong. I don't understand what is that deep between 40 and 50 hz and why REW don't display any filter there.
At the moment I don't have a way in my sistem to apply eq.
This is the next step, so I need more advice:

1) buying a MiniDSP (the Flex, maybe)?
2) or is it possible to install a DSP plugin in Volumio?
3) something else?

The grill doesn't affect the subbwoofer response so much I hope or maybe I have to redo the measure without the grill on.
 

TimW

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I doubt the subwoofer grill has an audible affect. Your subwoofer to mains integration looks pretty good from that measurement, maybe try measuring the sub on its own to see if the null changes. It is possible since there is no high pass on the speakers that there could be cancellation between the mains and sub.

If you're going to continue using your current amp then the Flex doesn't make a lot of sense IMO.
 
OP
Tremolo

Tremolo

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I doubt the subwoofer grill has an audible affect. Your subwoofer to mains integration looks pretty good from that measurement, maybe try measuring the sub on its own to see if the null changes. It is possible since there is no high pass on the speakers that there could be cancellation between the mains and sub.
Thank you very much for your help. Here the sub only and the full sistem (don't mind the level difference). The deep doesn't seems caused by the absence of a hp filter on the mains (nor phase related I guess).
subonly.jpg


I am afraid the deep is a problem of placement in the room but I don't have many choices (fireplace, furniture, doors, etc.).
A way to reduce the deep is to place the sub with the side (not the back) on the front wall firing at the side wall (the green plot).
subwall.jpg

Are there any downsides in placing the sub this way?
 
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