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Speaker Testing: why mono is better

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amirm

amirm

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What if Harman's interpretation of the data is in fact wrong?
You didn't question the opinion of the BBC engineer even though he presented no research to back what he says. But now you are in the business of questioning Dr. Toole's interpretation? Decide if you are going to appeal to authority or not. Can't have it both ways.
 

tuga

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You didn't question the opinion of the BBC engineer even though he presented no research to back what he says. But now you are in the business of questioning Dr. Toole's interpretation? Decide if you are going to appeal to authority or not. Can't have it both ways.

I am not in the business.
And I am not questioning authority, only this particular interpretation of the data.
 
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amirm

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I am not in the business.
And I am not questioning authority, only this particular interpretation of the data.
Didn't you also question spinorama? And now listening test protocol? If you are only interested in external writing that backs your current opinion, then you are never going to learn anything. I remember my first presentation from Dr. Toole. I had to flush everything I thought I knew down the toilet and start over again. I suggest being in the business of learning. It will do you good....
 

tuga

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Didn't you also question spinorama? And now listening test protocol? If you are only interested in external writing that backs your current opinion, then you are never going to learn anything. I remember my first presentation from Dr. Toole. I had to flush everything I thought I knew down the toilet and start over again. I suggest being in the business of learning. It will do you good....

I love learning. I also question. Science is not a church.
 

ctrl

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Personally, I still haven't made up my mind. I disagree with @amirm's conclusion that the linked Harman study is sufficient to prove that "mono preference will always be the same as stereo preference". Obviously, that statement can't be proven 100%, but I don't mean "proven" in that sense. I mean proven more along the lines of "beyond reasonable doubt".
....
That said, my brain keeps coming back to Toole's statement that they've been doing this for 30 years, and there have been 0 exceptions of mono to stereo preference changing. While I don't think that single study is sufficient, I would have to agree that 30 years worth of similar data probably is.

I can't provide a proof either, only a method how everyone can decide for himself if there can theoretically be a change in the ranking between stereophonic and monophonic - at least in terms of timbre.

Take a loudspeaker (preferably one that doesn't already sound perfect), place it in the middle of the room and listen to music in mono (down-sampled from stereo) and with a volume that exposes problematic frequency ranges.
Then change the sound of the speaker with the help of an equalizer so that it sounds perfect - crystal clear treble reproduction, voices and instruments detach from the speaker,...
Well, at least as good as it can be.

Then set up the speaker pair for stereo listening. Do not change anything in the equalizer settings and listen to the same music tracks in stereo (if possible with the same sound pressure level, e.g. check via smartphone app).
Try to ignore things like envelopment, sound image, ... and concentrate on whether the timbre has changed.

If the timbre changes, for better or worse, you have a strong indication that the ranking of speaker may change slightly from monophonic to stereophonic.
 

Beershaun

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I can't provide a proof either, only a method how everyone can decide for himself if there can theoretically be a change in the ranking between stereophonic and monophonic - at least in terms of timbre.

Take a loudspeaker (preferably one that doesn't already sound perfect), place it in the middle of the room and listen to music in mono (down-sampled from stereo) and with a volume that exposes problematic frequency ranges.
Then change the sound of the speaker with the help of an equalizer so that it sounds perfect - crystal clear treble reproduction, voices and instruments detach from the speaker,...
Well, at least as good as it can be.

Then set up the speaker pair for stereo listening. Do not change anything in the equalizer settings and listen to the same music tracks in stereo (if possible with the same sound pressure level, e.g. check via smartphone app).
Try to ignore things like envelopment, sound image, ... and concentrate on whether the timbre has changed.

If the timbre changes, for better or worse, you have a strong indication that the ranking of speaker may change slightly from monophonic to stereophonic.
I have no idea what the goal of your experiment would be as you described it. Can you enlightened us as to what you would expect to learn from your experiment? I will say again, the goal is to determine the best way to get repeatabile listening preferences for a speaker to determine which are good/better/best. The video presents the scientific research that demonostrates that listening to a single speaker is better than listening to two in order to subjectively differentiate one speaker from another and decide which is a better performing speaker.
 

ctrl

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I will say again, the goal is to determine the best way to get repeatabile listening preferences for a speaker to determine which are good/better/best.
I think there is hardly anyone here in the thread who doubts that monophonic listening accomplishes this. So, please don't get me wrong.

But the point is that Dr. Toole and others claim that monophonic listening is an absolute tool to evaluate speaker:
... my brain keeps coming back to Toole's statement that they've been doing this for 30 years, and there have been 0 exceptions of mono to stereo preference changing.


Can you enlightened us as to what you would expect to learn from your experiment?
One way to decide for yourself if this statement can be true.

If this statement is true, the timbre must not change from monophonic to stereophonic listening - related to my listening test proposal in Post#325.

Otherwise, it would mean that a loudspeaker that sounds perfect monophonic can no longer sound perfect in stereophonic listening.
And vice versa, that a loudspeaker that may sound a little "boring" in monophonic, may sound perfect in stereophonic.
 

Francis Vaughan

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I think the discussion underlines a few problems.

Overall, IMHO, there are so many good reasons to perform mono evaluation as the primary evaluation that it clear it should always be the default.

However, and it pains me somewhat to say it. The original paper Amir and others cite in support of this case is sufficiently weak as to not usefully add to the conversation. It is a very old paper, and using only three speakers, one with a wildly different polar response, which pretty much makes drawing any conclusions in a scientific manner impossible. It provides supporting evidence for the hypothesis, but it is way way short of providing enough evidence on its own. It didn't refute the hypothesis. That is all. Indeed all any experiment can ever do.

What we do do, is accept that the methodology has proven good over the intervening 30 years, and that many people have independently come to the same conclusions. The paper by itself provide nothing but a single data point. There is no additional data as to the reason why the results occur. You can't do that with only a single data point. There are lots of hypotheses as to why the rankings collapse, but the paper provides zero evidence in support of one over another. That research comes later, and sadly, a lot of it seems to have never reached peer reviewed publication.

For solid science one needs lots of careful experiments. And for any given experiment you work with a single hypothesis. This brings us to the reproducibility crisis in science. Social sciences have become so scientifically bankrupt that the realisation has started to sink in that there are entire swathes of research that are simply invalid. Years upon years of published results that have been accepted without question, and turn out to be unreproducible - aka wrong. Science hinges on peer review, and that review means others should reproduce results. The rush to publish impactful work means everyone is trying to be the one with new results, and nobody has been minding the farm. In the social sciences this has lead to terrible research practices, practices that amount to reverse fitting of hypotheses to existing data in a manner that is guaranteed to yield invalid but apparently statistically valid results.

What is needed is more experiments and publication of those experiments. Amir is probably the only person on the planet gearing up to address this. Like all science, it is a work in progress.
 
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Take a loudspeaker (preferably one that doesn't already sound perfect), place it in the middle of the room and listen to music in mono (down-sampled from stereo) and with a volume that exposes problematic frequency ranges.
Then change the sound of the speaker with the help of an equalizer so that it sounds perfect - crystal clear treble reproduction, voices and instruments detach from the speaker,...
Well, at least as good as it can be.
What is the purpose of EQ here? And how would instruments detach from the speaker with it?
 

NTK

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If this statement is true, the timbre must not change from monophonic to stereophonic listening - related to my listening test proposal in Post#325.
I don't think this is possible. Dr Toole talked about the 2 kHz phantom center dip.
https://www.audioholics.com/room-ac...ons-human-adaptation/what-do-listeners-prefer

Phantom center interference dip2.PNG


Phantom center interference dip.jpg
 
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amirm

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However, and it pains me somewhat to say it. The original paper Amir and others cite in support of this case is sufficiently weak as to not usefully add to the conversation. It is a very old paper, and using only three speakers, one with a wildly different polar response, which pretty much makes drawing any conclusions in a scientific manner impossible.
There were two references in the video, not one. The second one was the test of different EQ systems with identical speaker and see listener ratings in double blind testing as speaker count changed from mono to 5 channels. That study was from 2008: https://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=14622

1616889134676.png


Since the only variable here was frequency response, it shows clearly that we are better off doing mono testing to determine the most important factor in listener performance.
 

Beershaun

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I think there is hardly anyone here in the thread who doubts that monophonic listening accomplishes this. So, please don't get me wrong.

But the point is that Dr. Toole and others claim that monophonic listening is an absolute tool to evaluate speaker:




One way to decide for yourself if this statement can be true.

If this statement is true, the timbre must not change from monophonic to stereophonic listening - related to my listening test proposal in Post#325.

Otherwise, it would mean that a loudspeaker that sounds perfect monophonic can no longer sound perfect in stereophonic listening.
And vice versa, that a loudspeaker that may sound a little "boring" in monophonic, may sound perfect in stereophonic.

The research doesn't attempt to present a measure of perfect. Nor are subjective scales a way that anyone has ever hypothesized are a way to measure perfection. They measure a relative scale of human preference that you can correlate to statistically. In the video the data presented shows that the relative ranking is the same when measuring 2 speakers or 1 speaker. It's just that the absolute preference rating is more pronounced. Meaning that the single speaker preference rating correlates with a 2 speaker preference rating. It's again, just easier to determine the differences with one speaker than 2. So the results from 1 speaker testing are valid for 2 speaker listening.

If you want to decide for yourself if this is true. The scientific method guides you in how to do this. Reproduce the experiment for yourself with the same conditions and see if you get the same answers or different answers.
 

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While one can see certain fringe designs might benefit from stereo playback as they are designed exclusively for that I'm still waiting for evidence this cant be seen in the behaviour of a single speaker once one knows what they are looking for.

Just to be clear, my position is NOT that the stereo behavior of a pair of speakers cannot be inferred from the measured behavior of a single speaker once you know what to look for.

My position is that stereo listening is more revealing of spatial quality than single-speaker mono listening is. In other words, I'm saying that, in my opinion, perceived spatial quality in single-speaker mono listening is not necessarily predictive of perceived spatial quality in stereo listening.

(Whether successful "fringe" loudspeaker designs and/or stereo configurations ought to have credibility is of course a matter of opinion, as is whether "success" be judged on the actual merits or on the marketplace footprint.)

I'm almost finished writing the post that I threatened you with in my post number 295. You were foolish enough to accept my challenge, now prepare to die of boredom as you reap the rewards of agreeing with Amir and Toole instead of with me! Moo-hoo-ha-Ha-HAAAAA!!
 

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Where did @Duke, this post just go?

The attachments were actually intended for a different post, so I just deleted the whole thing and started over. I was composing two posts at once, and the attachments for the long post ended up at the bottom of the short post when I posted that one first. The attachments will reappear in their proper context in a subsequent post.
 
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don'ttrustauthority

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Mono testing is Audio Science Review's method of procedure. It is objective and nobody can argue that.
That's absolutely insane. No test procedure is objective. Subjectivity is introduced as soon as you make decisions about which tests to use, and which products to test.
 

restorer-john

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The attachments were actually intended for a different post, so I just deleted the whole thing and statred over. I was composing two posts at once. The attachments will reappear in their proper context in a subsequent post.

I figured as much. I went to quote your post and it was gone, but still on my screen.
 

don'ttrustauthority

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My position is that stereo listening is more revealing of spatial quality than single-speaker mono listening is. In other words, I'm saying that, in my opinion, perceived spatial quality in single-speaker mono listening is not necessarily predictive of perceived spatial quality in stereo listening.

(Whether successful "fringe" loudspeaker designs and/or stereo configurations ought to have credibility is of course a matter of opinion, as is whether "success" be judged on the actual merits or on the marketplace footprint.)
No.

You are conflating spatial quality (the area where the speaker radiates sound) to things like center imaging and soundstage (stereo spatial quality, if you will), which results from two speakers interactivity while playing a stereo recording.

A single speaker does not produce a center image of course. And it cannot produce the imaging you speak of. BUT it is important to see how a speaker radiates sound.

If you take a box speaker it's easy to predict, but take an Ohm Walsh or a Magnepan and it's a whole new ball of wax. You would certainly want to hear the spatial quality in mono to get a sense of the natural radiating pattern of the speaker during placement. Then see if the position works for stereo too.
 

Duke

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In response to my post number 295, @hex168 and @Thomas savage expressed interest in my offer to “describe what I believe to be a stereo setup where something desirable happens to the spatial quality which cannot be evaluated by testing a single speaker.” Perhaps @richard12511, @Coach_Kaarlo, and @tuga ought to be notified as well, since they “liked” post number 295.

And I SHOULD HAVE made it clear that I was referring to LISTENING tests, not the actual MEASUREMENTS of a single loudspeaker. My bad, and I hereby excuse any of the five of you who thought I was talking about MEASUREMENTS from having to read the rest of this post. (I suggest you take advantage of that loophole; this is a dreadfully long post.)

Please consider all of this to be my opinion so that I don't have to remember to insert an annoying number of disclaimers.

Here's the TL;DR version: If you take two speakers with narrow and well-controlled patterns and toe them in such that their axes criss-cross in front of the main listening position, their room interaction will result in better spatial qualities than could have been predicted from mono on-axis listening to a single speaker.

And now the long version:

First, let me re-state my opinion regarding mono vs stereo listening tests so that nobody reads through all of this under the assumption that my claim is farther-reaching than it actually is:

I claim that stereo listening is more revealing of spatial quality than single-speaker mono listening is.

And the intention of this post is to present an example of an unorthodox but valid stereo setup whose spatial qualities cannot be adequately evaluated by listening to a single speaker.

For the purpose of this post, let's define “good spatial quality” as, the recording venue's acoustic space perceptually dominating over the playback room's acoustic signature. In other words, a “you are there” illusion is the goal (which of course is also somewhat recording-dependent, so we can only focus on the speakers and their interaction with the listening room).

In the playback room there is in effect a “competition” between the venue cues on the recording (whether said cues be real or engineered) and the "small room signature" cues of the playback room itself. The ear/brain system make its best guess about the acoustic space you are in by drawing from these two packages of acoustic cues. Ideally we'd like to effectively present the venue cues which are on the recording while minimizing undesirable "small room signature" cues, thus enabling a “you are there” illusion. This is of course easier said than done.

At the risk of oversimplifying, the ear looks at three things to judge the size of an acoustic space: The earliest reflections; the reverberation tails; and the temporal "center of gravity" of the reflections. So we have the early reflections, reverberation tails, and temporal "center of gravity" of the venue cues on the recording; and we have the early reflections, reverberation tails, and temporal "center of gravity" native to the playback room. We want to effectively present the first package of cues while disrupting and/or minimizing the second.

Achieving our goal is complicated by the fact that it is the in-room reflections which are the CARRIERS of the venue cues (at least for two-channel). Yes there are venue cues in the direct sound, but that is actually the WORST possible direction for reflections to come from. Reflections coming from many different directions will do a much better job of presenting the venue's spatial cues.

ALL of the in-room reflections are carriers of the desirable venue cues, but the FIRST in-room reflections are also the STRONGEST source of undesirable "small room signature" cues. So the WEAKER the first reflections are (relative to the later ones), the LESS small-room signature we will have superimposed atop the venue cues.

On the other hand the in-room reverberation tails are very effective carriers of the recording venue's reverberation tails, and therefore can play a significant role in creating the illusion of immersion in a much larger acoustic space than the playback room. So we want to preserve these reverberation tails, and of course we want them to be spectrally correct. (If the in-room reverberation tails are spectrally incorrect then the ear/brain system has a harder time identifying them as reflections, which is detrimental for reasons I can explain if anyone is interested.)

So to recap where we are thus far: We want WEAK early reflections because that weakens the playback room's “small room signature”; and we want plenty of spectrally-correct later reflections because they effectively and benignly deliver the recording's venue cues.

There is one more thing that would help: If we can somehow time-delay the first lateral reflections, this would push back in time the temporal "center of gravity" of the in-room reflections. Doing so disrupts the undesirable "small room signature", because a long time-delay for the first lateral reflections tells the ear/brain system that you're in a much bigger room that you actually are. In effect this undermines the plausibility of the “small room signature” package of reflections, making it easier for the ear/brain system to accept the recording's venue cues as the more plausible package of reflections.

(If I didn't put him to sleep, @Kal Rubinson is probably shouting at his computer screen that a good multichannel system already does all of this. And he is right! But let's see how much we can do with just stereo.)

Okay with that long-winded background behind us, let's look at what happens when we use the unorthodox approach to stereo that I briefly described earlier, with narrow-pattern speakers and criss-crossing patterns.

The Gedlee Summa is designed to be used like this. The Summa combines a 15” woofer with a similar-sized round, 90-degree, constant-directivity waveguide. The crossover is around 1 kHz, where the woofer's pattern has narrowed to match that of the waveguide. Here is a polar map of the Summa's frequency response:


SummaMap.jpg


The designed-for listening axis of the Summa 20 degrees off-axis. You can see this depicted by the red line in the overhead polar response view to the right of the polar map, above. And in the polar map you can see a horizontal black line that is not right smack down the center of the polar map, but is 20 degrees above the center. That is the intended listening axis.

And below is a photo showing how this type of speaker is intended to be set up. The photo is taken from off to one side and you can see that the speaker axes criss-cross in front of the central sweet spot (these speakers aren't Summas):


TimeIntensityTrading.jpg



The combination of narrow, well-behaved radiation pattern AND strong toe-in has two major implications for room interaction. First, the early same-side-wall reflection is very weak over the imaging-critical upper portion of the spectrum because the speaker's pattern is aimed about 45 degrees AWAY from the same-side wall. Second, the first STRONG lateral reflection is actually the long, across-the-room bounce off the OPPOSITE side wall! Earl Geddes on the subject:

“A reflected signal that arrives at the opposite ear from the direct sound is less perceptible as coloration and image shift than if both signals arrive at the same ear. This is because of head shadowing above about 500 Hz and the fact that our ears can process signals between them. When the two signals arrive at the same ear, the signals are physically merged in space even before they enter the ear and no amount of auditory processing can separate them. When these signals arrive at different ears, the auditory processing system can diminish the adverse effects of these early reflections through cognitive processing between the ears."

In a conversation with me Earl used the term "decorrelation" to describe this situation where the first significant lateral reflection arrives at the opposite ear. Decorrelation increases the sense of being in a large acoustic space and therefore is a disruptor of "small room signature" cues. Decorrelation is used to derive surround channel information from a recording which does not have surround channels.

Earl continues:

“From an acoustics reproduction standpoint then, the loudspeaker system design must help to provide as much delay as possible in the early reflections and allow for speaker placement and orientation such that the earliest reflections occur at opposite ears rather than the same ear. This needs to be done above about 500 Hz. Below 500 Hz other factors, such as room characteristics and our hearing mechanism, may dictate an entirely different approach.

“In order to perform this “trick” for optimizing the early reflections in a small room, two specific source characteristics are required. First, the source directivity must be less than about 90° and second, the listener is not actually on the sources axis! In other words the direct sound, the first arrival sound, is not the axial sound. To achieve a flat response at the listener in this configuration, the loudspeaker must have a flat frequency response off axis. This is virtually never the case with most loudspeakers. Most loudspeakers with a smooth flat axial response will usually not work very well in this configuration.”

So here are the first two advantages of this cross-firing narrow-pattern speaker setup, which would not be revealed by listening to a single speaker on-axis:

1. Reduced image shift (and reduced coloration) due to reduced early same-side-wall interaction, and due to the first strong lateral reflections arriving at the opposite ear; and

2. Reduced “small room signature” due to weakened early reflections, decorrelation, and pushing the temporal “center of gravity” of the reflections back in time.

Another spatial quality attribute of this setup is that the soundstage holds up much better than normal for off-centerline listeners. The ear/brain system localizes sound by two mechanisms: Arrival time and intensity. With a conventional stereo configuration (speakers toed-in little if any), the soundstage tends to collapse towards the nearest speaker for off-centerline listeners because the nearest speaker “wins” both arrival time and intensity. With narrow-pattern speakers toed-in aggressively (like the approximately 45 degrees you see in the photo above), the near speaker “wins” arrival time but the FAR speaker “win” intensity! This is because, as the photo shows, the off-centerline listener is well off-axis of the near speaker but right smack on-axis (or nearly so) of the far speaker. The two competing localization mechanisms tend towards balancing one another out, and you still get a decent spread of the instruments (including the center vocalist remaining near the center with most recordings) even from locations as far off-centerline as where the photo was taken from. The KEY to this working well is that the response of the near speaker must fall off RAPIDLY and SMOOTHLY as we move off-axis, which is not the case with most loudspeakers.

So we can add one more spatial advantage of narrow-pattern speakers in a cross-firing stereo configuration:

3. Soundstaging holds up much better than normal for off-centerline listeners.

As previously mentioned, the correct listening axis of the Summa 20 degrees off-axis. In the following image the black curve across the top is the frequency response at 20 degrees off axis, so (assuming proper set-up) this is the frequency response of the first-arrival sound:


SummaCurve.jpg



The red line is the power response curve, and the white line is the directivity index. Imo both are very good, with the spectral balance of the off-axis energy matching the spectral balance of the first-arrival sound exceptionally well (and imo this is desirable – I can explain my thinking on the subject if anyone is interested).

One consequence of the first-arrival sound being the 20 degrees off-axis sound AND the extreme toe-in is that the perceived tonality is relatively consistent across a wide listening area. And as we move off-axis to either side, the net spectral balance of the first-arrival sound holds up better than is normally the case because the reduction in energy in the top half of the spectrum from the near speaker is being offset by the increase in energy in the top half of the spectrum from the far speaker. This is of course more of a sound quality advantage than a spatial quality advantage, but without it the spatial quality advantage for off-centerline listeners would imo be of academic interest only. So I'm adding it to my list:

4. Reduced spectral discrepancy between the first-arrival and reverberant sound, for off-centerline as well as on-centerline listeners.

And as is hopefully self-evident, advantages 3 and 4 would not be revealed by single-speaker on-axis listening.

So in conclusion I think there is at least one valid stereo configuration with spatial attributes that cannot be evaluated by single-speaker on-axis listening.
 
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ctrl

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What is the purpose of EQ here? And how would instruments detach from the speaker with it?
I assume that the speaker does not sound perfect in advance, so you adjust the monophonic heard speaker by equalizer to make it sound as perfect as possible.
I used the buzzwords (detached, crystal clear treble,...) only to emphasize what I mean - it's hard to use the "right" adjectives.

I don't think this is possible. Dr Toole talked about the 2 kHz phantom center dip.

Yep, for this reason there can be a change in timbre when going from monophonic to stereophonic and thus inevitably a speaker that has perfect sound monophonic cannot sound perfect stereophonic as well.
In most sources, a stereophonic heard speaker sounds a little brighter then in monophonic.
Had described this in in post#104 with sources.
 
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