Speaker suggestions

[Heinrich]

I'm looking for something up to the $1000 range for drivers and crossover.

Mr. Heissmann is a nice guy. But with all due respect, well earned, DIY cannot compete with KEF R3 (non meta) bought new or pre-owned for instance. The slight emphasis in treble is easily tamed with using the quite pretty grille - or an equalizer. Dissemble, repaint, put together again, measure, enjoy.

If DIY I would go for other things like 12" bass/mid plus horn etc., parts from the scrapyard or overstock ond so forth. The knowledge to be invested with an own design is crucial, but exactly that make the savings, me thinks.

 

[Joe BKNY]

Yes it is. The DI on the Mechano23 is a lot better.

Please sir, what is DI?

 

[ta240]

The slight emphasis in treble is easily tamed with using the quite pretty grille - or an equalizer. Dissemble, repaint, put together again, measure, enjoy.

We listened to the meta version of the R3, but without the grille. I'm curious now how it would sound with the grille because without, it felt like we were being tortured with some of the high notes.

 

[Heinrich]

Please sir, what is DI?

Directivity Index, what the relation is between direct sound towards the listener, compared to the total output summed over all directions. An overhyped property of speakers. It has its meaning, but people stress it too much, in my book, especially with lightly based theories (speculations).

We listened to the meta version of the R3, but without the grille. I'm curious now how it would sound with the grille because without, it felt like we were being tortured with some of the high notes.

It's not too much, it just shaves ~1..2dB off around 6kHz. It introduces a quite narrow interference around 8kHz also, if my recollection holds. But that's not audible (to me). I'm pretty much sure you won't do better with DIY anyway, considered the price. The R3 are three way, which is a big big plus.

 

[Ktacos]

An overhyped property of speakers

Oh not a tall, it's definitely a performance aspect that separates good speakers from great ones. Perhaps it's not something you can hear yourself, but speakers that get it right to my (mix engineer) ears definitely find speakers that get it right to be a step above most. It's not just limited to the common mid/woofer to tweeter issues, but cardoid also falls under DI and IME, those speakers do an amazing job at achieving their intended goals and certainly sound better than speakers that radiate omni in the lower regions.

You can certainly make a speaker that sounds good without paying much attention to DI, but if you want one that sounds great you have to get DI right.

 

[Heinrich]

Oh not a tall, it's definitely a performance aspect that separates good speakers from great ones. Perhaps it's not something you can hear yourself, but speakers that get it right to my (mix engineer) ears definitely find speakers that get it right to be a step above most. It's not just limited to the common mid/woofer to tweeter issues, but cardoid also falls under DI and IME, those speakers do an amazing job at achieving their intended goals and certainly sound better than speakers that radiate omni in the lower regions.

You can certainly make a speaker that sounds good without paying much attention to DI, but if you want one that sounds great you have to get DI right.

O/k, admittedly, my comment was meant to be a bit controversial, but with good intentions. One example: sharply radiating forward, but wide, with a little attenuation, frequency neutral, to the back (absurd, but could be). Gives DI=x,. And in comparison some good studio monitor, wide and neutral to the front, low leakage to the back, same DI=x. The DI as a scalar isn't sufficient to even roughly estimate things. It's use implicates, silently that is, regular middle of the road behavior. Such is given with pro/ applications, large venues, open sky p/a, train stations ...

For home use (sic!) it makes less sense, as the room's properties are crucial for the outcome. Reverberation time, location of early reflections and so forth. People often talk DI, but only rarely RT60, let alone its spectral distribution. Would like to see more, but no avail.

 

[DearSX]

The problem with the Mechano23 recommended in post #3 and #15 is that it is not an upgrade over the OP's Zaph ZA5.2, which actually seem a little bitt better and he doesn't want a sub.

Zaph: Preference score 5.57; F3/F6 = 70Hz / 47Hz
Mechano23: Preference score 5.55; F3/F6 = 78Hz / 56Hz

In my opinion, there is no point in "upgrading" unless you are getting to the next level.
Does the Suzie Q fit the bill? We just don't know. But the 8" discovery woofer is in a different league. Higher sensitivity, higher power handling, displaces 3.60x more air, lower distortion. It uses the same tweeter as the Mechano23.


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Reading Amirm's review, you would think their is a huge difference between the two:

ZA5:
In use the ZA5 in my main system sounded quite bright. This was not due to tilted up highs but lack of any bass to speak of. There isn't lower bass. There isn't midbass. As predicted from measurements, efficiency is quite poor causing me to turn up my amplifier to very high amplification levels (1000 watts on tap) to drive them. Before you got any bass the highs were killing you and the midwoofer would start to bottom out. On the latter though, it took a ton of power before it mildly stepped into that region.

Mechano23 Speaker Listening Tests
I guess I was so incredulous of the measurements that I did not think the speaker would not sound that good. Well, that good it was! The sound was impressively neutral yet warm with sufficient upper bass. Despite listening to a single speaker, I was able to almost satisfy my need for loudness. Pushed a bit harder and bass would become "papery" for the lack of a better word. The deep bass no longer sounded warm and accurate. One notch lower though and the response was superb with the speaker fully filling my huge listening space.

In my sub-bass reference track, those notes were produced with fair bit of distortion and at lower level. On other music with less isolated deep bass, there was no audible issue.

Overall, I was left just as impressed with subjective impression as I was with the objective measurements. You have a reference quality speaker here, albeit with limited deep bass response.

btw. I own the Zaph ZA5 car audio kit (its not installed at the moment) and I can't say I remember exactly how it sounded, its been a while. I know bass was not crazy, but I didn't expect that from a 5" midbass.

 

[ta240]

Reading Amirm's review, you would think their is a huge difference between the two:

Let me know when he starts doing double blind testing.

 

[DearSX]

Let me know when he starts doing double blind testing.

Closest thing we have is the measurements for both.

 

[a4eaudio]

Reading Amirm's review, you would think their is a huge difference between the two:

That is one of the reasons I posted the F3/F6 The review of the ZA5 was not very positive and was mostly about the lack of bass - which is fair as it's a 5" driver with a relatively high F3. But the Mechano measured VERY similar from a Spinorama perspective and has (significantly?) less bass.

I haven't heard either, so I'm not saying one actually SOUNDS better than the other, just that objectively I don't see how the Mechano could be a STEP UP from the ZA5s which is what the OP is looking for. It would be a slightly different conversation if the OP didn't have speakers and was trying to choose between these two.

 

[a4eaudio]

@ta240 - these aren't going to get much love on ASR because the designer (Curt Campbell) doesn't take Spinorama measurements, but he is one of the more highly regarded DIY designers around.

Speaker Components & DIY Audio Parts | Madisound

Morel + SB Acoustics Chevalier 3-Way Speaker Kit - PairDesigned by Curt Campbell ~ Speaker Design WorksThe Chevalier is a modern take on a traditional 8 ohm 3-way. The high & midrange frequencies are covered by the Morel TM4055-8 Soft Dome 1" Tweeter + 2" Midrange combination. The level of...

www.madisoundspeakerstore.com

Speaker Design Works | Fully documented loudspeaker design

Speaker Design Works is the best place for audiophile home speakers for DIY. Our bookshelf speakers and tower speakers are fully documented with clear instructions for the audio enthusiast. Build your own hi-end stereo speakers for music and Home Theater.

www.speakerdesignworks.com

 

[DearSX]

That is one of the reasons I posted the F3/F6 The review of the ZA5 was not very positive and was mostly about the lack of bass - which is fair as it's a 5" driver with a relatively high F3. But the Mechano measured VERY similar from a Spinorama perspective and has (significantly?) less bass.

I haven't heard either, so I'm not saying one actually SOUNDS better than the other, just that objectively I don't see how the Mechano could be a STEP UP from the ZA5s which is what the OP is looking for. It would be a slightly different conversation if the OP didn't have speakers and was trying to choose between these two.

I think the point that Amirm was making is that the relative level of bass to midrange/treble made the speaker sound bright because of the flatness in the higher octaves, vs Mechano has a more sloping treble (estimated in room response).

Like you can see a 1-2db increase in frequency on the Zaph 2.3khz-5khz relative to other frequencies and similar increase 800-900hz.

Although I'm just opinionating here, as I'm not super knowledgeable about these things. I am looking to one day build Mechano speakers, although the Ascilabs F6Bs seems to be the closest retail competitor and its easier to just buy those I'm curious about how those 2 would compete side by side.

 

[a4eaudio]

Closest thing we have is the measurements for both.

I would definitely have to take the Textbook Perfect one over the Tilted Up one. (I just have to make sure not to crop the name off, as I might forget which one was which )

 

[ta240]

@ta240 - these aren't going to get much love on ASR because the designer (Curt Campbell) doesn't take Spinorama measurements, but he is one of the more highly regarded DIY designers around.

Speaker Components & DIY Audio Parts | Madisound

Morel + SB Acoustics Chevalier 3-Way Speaker Kit - PairDesigned by Curt Campbell ~ Speaker Design WorksThe Chevalier is a modern take on a traditional 8 ohm 3-way. The high & midrange frequencies are covered by the Morel TM4055-8 Soft Dome 1" Tweeter + 2" Midrange combination. The level of...

www.madisoundspeakerstore.com

Speaker Design Works | Fully documented loudspeaker design

Speaker Design Works is the best place for audiophile home speakers for DIY. Our bookshelf speakers and tower speakers are fully documented with clear instructions for the audio enthusiast. Build your own hi-end stereo speakers for music and Home Theater.

www.speakerdesignworks.com

I've looked at those quite a bit. There is a lot I like about them.

The only thing that made me a bit nervous was the rise at the upper end:

 

[ta240]

What are the thoughts on this one:

Discovery-81

It is also an 8" and I think the crossover components would be cheaper and easier to source all at once, even from overseas and with all the tariff fun.
It is one of his easier to build cabinets too.

Not a lot show vertical, so is this behavior normal?

 

[ta240]

In my opinion, there is no point in "upgrading" unless you are getting to the next level.

That is one of the best statements to do with audio. Especially with DIY where so much time and effort is involved.
It is also the thinking that keeps delaying me in replacing my current car

Having gone through building speakers twice before where I ended up dismantling the finished speaker and selling the drivers I'm very gun shy with spending all the time and money trying it again.

 

[a4eaudio]

@ta240 -

A problem for an ASR objectivist is that so few DIY designers publish thorough measurements. Heissmann does and Troels does not, and neither are that popular in the US so it is heard to get much feedback on their designs.

I was trying to think of good designs to suggest but something occurred to me...the Parts Express Speaker Design Competition is being held August 1st and 2nd. There might be some good designs that come out of the event. So a second idea - I know you are in the US, but are you near Dayton, Ohio? If so, you should go and hear a bunch of designs. Some are REALLY good. Either way, I'll be there and if there is anything outstanding, I'll let you know.

 

[ta240]

I'm far from hardcore ASR so I'm okay with some basic measurements and a good number of subjective reviews. A lot of the reviews I find of DIY builds seem to mirror my experience where some parts of the sound are great but there are issues elsewhere. Often times quite positive reviews are ended with "I may play with the tweeter resistor a little to tame the brightness" or something similar.

I'm a long ways from Ohio, unfortunately, it would be fun to hear a wide variety of them there. If I had any grasp of the design process it might be worth the flight but I'd need to learn enough in advance to make the trip worthwhile. And my brain is already getting full from learning a new job with 800 page manuals where everyone always likes to asks "did you read the manual" when I ask questions.

It is disconcerting as you pointed out earlier that Heissman didn't include a polar map for the Suzy Q. It could be an oversite or it could be because it didn't look great. It isn't a real expensive design and it isn't touted as being the end all audiophile speaker either so a fair amount can be accepted. Troels gets more people commenting on his designs but he has a lot more so there aren't a lot of comments on each design. And when I got the shipping quote just for the crossover components for one design the bill went from 279 to 457 Pounds (pre tariff) so those are likely out.

The problem is a speaker in the price range of the SuzyQ is high enough that it can't just be another project that ends up in the attic when I'm done, but it isn't high enough to really expect amazing things. Yet, if I spend $1000-1500 on components and the result isn't pretty amazing then it will be brutal breaking them down to just sell the drivers.

When I built Zaph's SR71 speakers my wife would leave the room when I'd listen to music on them. She didn't have the heart to tell me that all my hard work hadn't paid off, but she also wasn't going to listen to it. I tried different resistors on the tweeters and nothing really worked. The amazing low end was brutalized by the highs. (which does make the DXT-MON tempting) Zaph's ZA5.2 are perfect for my garage speakers because unlike most people I don't want a party speaker in my garage, I just want something to listen to as background music while I work on the car and the lack of low end helps keep the sound in my garage. The beautiful midrange there is more than enough to keep me happy. With one win and one not from his designs I still thought for awhile about doing the ZRT.

 

[hex168]

How about these? They get a little narrow at the top end, but will play loud, if that is of interest. They measure well, apparently.

MTG Designs - VBS-6.2

The Design: A value oriented compact 6" 2-way with a horn loaded compression driver and excellent sound quality and output above 100hz. Best used as surrounds or compact mains in a home theater or where a small high output speaker is needed when subwoofers will be used to fill in the bottom end.

www.mtg-designs.com

 

[a4eaudio]

I'm far from hardcore ASR so I'm okay with some basic measurements and a good number of subjective reviews...

I know what you mean, but it is tough to drop $1000 and not quite know what you are getting.

I'm a long ways from Ohio, unfortunately, it would be fun to hear a wide variety of them there.

Well, if you can wait until after August 1, it may be worth it. I'll post anything interesting here.

One thing I will say regarding your very first post...$1000 for drivers and crossovers can get you a LOT of a DIY speaker. As an example...If you can pull off the woodworking for the slanted baffle, I've heard the Kalasans by Joachim Gerhard are very good. You'd have to dig through this thread for the details and confirm, but I think the drivers are Satori MW16P-8 and TW29R- (4 or 8 ohm?). Rev 5 crossover HERE. [Google him.]