Speaker Sensitivity: Advertised vs Measured

[richard12511]

Classical is probably less bass heavy than the average spectrum of pop music, so then the focus would shift to capability in the 100hz-1khz range or something like that, but I haven't seen a study on the average spectrum of classical, that information would be great to have.

That's very true. Even though classical has more dynamics, that doesn't mean it requires more power.

 

[MZKM]

For my theater, I went with Klipsch Reference Premier due to the sensitivity and dialogue intelligibility of horns for movies (I have found dynamics and dialogue the most important elements of my theater). So, sensitivity does sell. I did investigate the real sensitivity of 91 db (Stereophile, Sound and Vision as it was typically higher than others in their publication -- 2 to 3 db higher than standard dome tweeter systems) and went with Crown XLS2502 amps (to get the technical 105 db potential -- never listen that loud.). At 12 ft, I am starting at 85db (with 2 db of room gain), the power levels are 128 watts 8 ohm / 256 watt 4 ohm @ 105 db. While dynamic, great for movies, and live concerts (I use electrostatic speakers for critical listening), my issue is the slight noise level (hiss at the speakers -- can't hear it with my projector going). Additionally, I could not hear the hiss with my previous Infinity Speakers of less sensitivity.

Note: I have owned many speakers -- Klipsch, Martin Logan, Boston Acoustics, Infinity, Advent, Acoustic Research ****** I guess I am partial to American brands -- just noticed.

Yeah, high sensitivity means less wattage for the same SPL, meaning your amp is further from it’s rated wattage, and as you can see from all the amp measurements, the THD+N is almost always higher before max wattage, this is due to noise, which is the hiss you are hearing.

 

[MZKM]

That's very true. Even though classical has more dynamics, that doesn't mean it requires more power.

At least for movies, the vocals are mastered further from full scale, I think it’s like -24dBFS whereas pop music is like -12dBFS, so you typically have to use 10x the wattage to get vocals the same loudness.

High dynamic range means the average loudness and the loudest portions are further apart, and if the average level is supposed to be of average loudness, then high dynamic range does need more power.

 

[carlosmante]

Most speakers actually lack the ability to get to reference levels at 10+ feet. If you like movie theater sound, or you like to listen loud, or you like classical music, most speakers actually can't handle the dynamic range required. For example, only the Genelec "Main Monitors" satisfy all those requirements.

Use PA speakers, problem solved. I guess 132 dB will be enough.https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/K12.2--qsc-k12.2-2000w-12-inch-powered-speaker

 

[MZKM]

Use PA speakers, problem solved. I guess 132 dB will be enough.https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/K12.2--qsc-k12.2-2000w-12-inch-powered-speaker

I’m waiting on Amir to measure some PA speakers. What is interesting is I found some model lineups that do something good that I don’t see any Hi-Fi brands doing, actually using different waveguides for different woofer sizes.

 

[stevenswall]

No quality differences, just the ability to get loud enough. And again, a lot of drivers aren’t rated for more than 100W.

Thanks for the clarification. With this and other comments I think I understand: Getting loud for the price is cheaper when getting speakers that are more sensitive.

 

[richard12511]

Use PA speakers, problem solved. I guess 132 dB will be enough.https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/K12.2--qsc-k12.2-2000w-12-inch-powered-speaker

Need to see some measurements.

 

[carlosmante]

Need to see some measurements.

Ask amirm.

 

[MZKM]

I guess I’ll post this here:

I just noticed that SoundStage uses the listening window for their sensitivity. I do agree that that’s more realistic and won’t overly penalize waveguides which cause a dip directly on-axis. However, I highly doubt any manufacturers use the listening window, so it wouldn’t be really fair to compare them.

 

[MZKM]

I went ahead and contacted a few companies late last night asking for detailed information on their sensitivity ratings:


Ascend Acoustics: ”...our sensitivity measurement is anechoic, with a microphone distance of 1 meter and an input voltage of 2.83v. We use the averaged amplitude over the range of 300Hz - 3kHz. These are the current but not-so-widely-accepted standards.” -D. Fabrikant

KEF: “Generally most companies take their sensitivity rating at 1kHz – 1 meter – 2.83 volts (1 watt). Weighting doesn’t matter as it’s a constant frequency/power relationship. In room sensitivity is really not a thing as sensitivity has nothing to do with in-room acoustics but is really just how a speaker reacts to the power applied to it. Our sensitivity ratings are always somewhat conservative, meaning what we publish is typically a little lower than the actual rating – not by a lot but a dB or so maybe.” -Troy, KEF service

NHT: “We use the average anechoic SPL over a range (~500-2KHz) @ 1M, on-axis with 2.83 VRMS driving voltage.” - G. Chang

Sony: “We would like to inform you that we do not have the information that you seek.” They suggested live chat, I did that and the employee said they don’t have the test data and they don’t generally share info on the developmental process.

ATC: “We measure the loudspeaker on axis in essentially an anechoic environment. We apply no weighting to the response. We then take the average level through the linear region and quote this figure.” - R. Newman

PMC: I got B. Esry, he asked what speakers I was asking about and what amp I have, I picked a model (Gold DB1) and told him what amp I have, and he said it was enough to power them, and that dealers even use AVRs sometimes.

MartinLogan: “For floor standing ESL speakers:
These are measured from approximately 3.2 meters back, with the speaker placed in a parking lot, and with the speaker toed in per the instructions. The microphone is placed at the same position as an optimum listeners ear would be placed. We then compensate the SPL measurement by the distance to calculate an equivalent 2.83V @ 1 meter reading. The Average SPL is calculated by averaging the measured SPL over the speakers rated frequency response window.
For non ESL speakers:
Very similar process and setup to the above, but these are measured in room, (a typical sized listening room, not an anechoic chamber) at around 2 meters back. We then perform similar compensations and calculations to get to the standardized 2.83V @ 1m specification.”
- M. Lohmeyer

GoldenEar: “Our measurements are Anechoic.”, but didn’t know the frequency range used. -Chris

Focal: “My technical contact in France is away until the end of July, but I seem to remember it was A-weighed in anechoic...I'm pretty sure it is done at 1 kHz...I can safely say that most models are fairly efficient and easy to drive.They do not require a lot of watts, but respond better to high current, high quality electronics. For instance, you would often get better results from a high quality, hand made 75w European or American product, than you would from a 150w Japanese product.” - Michel

Q Acoustics: “Our measurements are carried out on axis in a anechoic chamber @ 1m , 1 kHz, 2.83 V rms”

Sonus Faber: “...sensitivity ratings measurements are obtained as follows: In our semi-anechoic room (coherent and certified since 100Hz), Not weighted, Average 100-20.000Hz, 1watt @ 1mt, On-axis between mid and tweeter” -Stephano

Klipsch: Waiting on response

Pioneer: Waiting on response

Polk: Waiting on response

Micca: Waiting on response

Dynaudio: Waiting on response

ELAC: Waiting on response

HTD: Waiting on response

Revel/Harman: Waiting on response

DefTech: Waiting on response



Any others?

I tried B&W but they have no email nor chat, they give you the phone number of your closest dealer.

I was surprised at how fast NHT & Ascend replied, they replied before I even woke up. They are working at ungodly hours!

 

[ta240]

....I was surprised at how fast NHT & Ascend replied, they replied before I even woke up. They are working at ungodly hours!

I do love companies that are quick to respond to questions. But now I'm looking at Ascend's subwoofers and I don't need any more subwoofers.

I like Sony's response. I can imagine their support people asking each other "what are they asking for?" "I have no idea, just tell them we don't give out that information"

 

[MZKM]

now I'm looking at Ascend's subwoofers and I don't need any more subwoofers.

They sell Rythmik subs, they don’t make their own. Ascend has a bundle feature where you get a variable discount based on the items, so for those looking for speakers+sub it may or may not be cheaper to buy the sub from them instead of Rythmik, but I haven’t checked to see.

 

[ta240]

They sell Rythmik subs, they don’t make their own. Ascend has a bundle feature where you get a variable discount based on the items, so for those looking for speakers+sub it may or may not be cheaper to buy the sub from them instead of Rythmik, but I haven’t checked to see.

That makes sense. It is funny I've been to Rythmik's site several times but the Ascend site is setup just a bit better so it was much easier to scan and find what interested me out of their available products.

 

[MZKM]

Focal: “My technical contact in France is away until the end of July, but I seem to remember it was A-weighed in anechoic...I can safely say that most models are fairly efficient and easy to drive.They do not require a lot of watts, but respond better to high current, high quality electronics. For instance, you would often get better results from a high quality, hand made 75w European or American product, than you would from a 150w Japanese product.” - Michel

Not really liking that dig at Japanese amplifiers.

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

Not really liking that dig at Japanese amplifiers.

lol, yeah the cork-sniffery is strong with that one!

 

[MZKM]

Heard back from Klipsch when asked about their parameters.

As an engineering-driven company, Klipsch considers frequency graph measurements proprietary information for our consumer products and does not publish this information.

We utilize custom equipment within our world-class engineering and technology centers that enable us to ensure consistent, precise performance of our horn-loaded loudspeaker systems. With our unique technology delivering controlled directivity, our acoustic engineers have done the work upfront to ensure that Klipsch speakers deliver powerful and smooth sound with a consistent coverage pattern.

Measurements are taken from a distance from the speaker baffle to replicate actual in-home listening and a real-world scenario. In addition, controlled directivity helps to ensure proper flat, smooth frequency response is consistent in-room, and within various room environments, which negates the use of automatic room correction in AV electronics. Our goal is to create the most powerful, best-sounding speaker at an optimal price.

Please note that response measurements taken close to the baffle do not accurately depict a system's total sound delivery into the room, and therefore are not representative of the true-to-life experience.

 

[MZKM]

Hah, Rythmik calls out Klipsch‘s sensitivty ratings:
http://www.rythmikaudio.com/F12.html

Efficiency of newer Klipsch horn speakers are over-rated by 6db and not an issue for gain matching. Please inquiry us when using our subs with horn speakers if you are not sure what to do.

 

[MZKM]

Altered the Pie chart to separate positive and negative, as before there were 9 in the +/- 1dB slice, now there are 7 in the ≥ -1dB slice and 2 in the >0.5dB slice; and I don't feel the need to separate the positive differences more than that, as that would be too clustered.

Also, don't like how the current labels are technically incorrect, but I guess they are more understandable than:
(0.5,inf)
[-0.5,0.5]
[-1,-0.5)
[-2,-1)
[-3,-2)
[-4,-3)
(-inf,-4)

Also, it is now 65% that are within +/-1.5dB.

 

[MZKM]

Altered the Pie chart to separate positive and negative, as before there were 9 in the +/- 1dB slice, now there are 7 in the ≥ -1dB slice and 2 in the >0.5dB slice; and I don't feel the need to separate the positive differences more than that, as that would be too clustered.

Also, don't like how the current labels are technically incorrect, but I guess they are more understandable than:
(0.5,inf)
[-0.5,0.5]
[-1,-0.5)
[-2,-1)
[-3,-2)
[-4,-3)
(-inf,-4)

Also, it is now 65% that are within +/-1.5dB.

Changed again:

>0.5dB: (0.5,inf)
+/-0.5dB: [-0.5,0.5]
-1dB: [-1.5,-0.5)
-2dB: [-2.5,-1.5)
-3dB: [-3.5,-2.5)
-4dB+: [-inf,-3.5)

 

[hardisj]

Did you ever get a reply from Klipsch on how they rate sensitivity?

Per the spec sheet, the Klipsch Heresy IV's I am testing are rated at 99dB/2.83v @ 1m. But, they have a footnote for this that states:
"Sensitivity in average listening room"

Are they adding 3dB for in-room effects? Cause, based on what I'm seeing in my data, it sure looks that way. I mean, wth does that even mean when you have a spec'd voltage and distance? Seems pretty silly to me. Just wondering if they may have given you a more definitive reply.