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Speaker recommendation in view of brand's cost cutting

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Roy_L

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yeh... I generally tend towards the BMRs. I was just thinking that there are some more quality options at this price point of semi-commercial speakers. I guess Revels and Dynaudios still worth considering. We'll see.
 

DanielT

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yeh... I generally tend towards the BMRs. I was just thinking that there are some more quality options at this price point of semi-commercial speakers. I guess Revels and Dynaudios still worth considering. We'll see.
Tip, if you are interested in floor standing speakers. Monitor Audio Silver 500 7G seems interesting.:)
Good sensitivity, nice FR and low distortion.

"The Silver 500 7G's sensitivity is specified as a high 90.5dB/2.83V/m, which was confirmed by my estimate....
The Monitor Audio Silver 500 7G's measured performance is superb. That it achieves this level of performance at an affordable price is even more commendable.—John Atkinson"



monitor_audio_500_g7_walnut_1.jpg
 
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captainbeefheart

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So, in short, for my money, I want speakers built with more than the bare minimum. Why? Because I'm not just buying sound (I know, outragious) I'm also buying an expensive product, and an expensive product, in my book, has to be made of more than the bare minimum. In light of this, can anyone please provide some recommendations? Or perhaps what I'm looking for just isn't there?


What is your definition of "bare minimum"?

Are you judging these parts by a cost comparison only? Or are you actually viewing product data sheets for specs to compare different capacitors?

To us engineers we don't think in terms of "bare minimum", we choose a particular component based on it's performance for a specific application. For example the engineer could choose a film capacitor for the woofer low pass filter network but it's going to much larger and much more expensive to gain absolutely no performance enhancements. In fact, the slightly higher ESR in an electrolytic capacitor will actually dampen resonance sometimes seen in these networks, switching to film capacitor may diminish performance and cost you more to do so. Unless you know more than the engineer that designed the balance/crossover networks then don't touch it.

Price is a terrible judge of capacitor performance. You can have very small boutique copper foil and paper capacitors that because they are made in a small batch and by a small company the price of parts and labor is passed onto you. If you are replacing a film type you may encounter greater losses, higher noise floor, and most likely a lower resonant frequency due to the larger leads adding higher inductance. The small film capacitors are made by companies that have huge amounts of money for research and development, they are making these capacitors for cutting edge applications and utilize high tech production techniques and materials, their specs are often far better than the boutique capacitors that cost an arm and a leg. It's just a cork sniffing thing, yes they function but typically worse but you get bragging rights to your friends and peeps online that you have these really cool expensive capacitors. Do you really think a capacitor designed for high frequency, high duty cycle pulsed applications is going to lose to a capacitor that uses techniques and materials that are 100 years old? That's all they are doing, we once rolled aluminum sheets with kraft paper then impregnated with oil to make capacitors, don't get me wrong they are good for some applications but we have much better for far cheaper. It's a win win but people can't let go of something performing quite well for less money. They are only inexpensive because they make so many of them for lots of high tech applications, it keeps cost down for everyone so might as well take advantage of it.
 

captainbeefheart

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Or we can view the problem this way.

What parts in the crossover do you feel are "bare minimum" and why?

If you can, specifically pick out a part or two, tell us why the parts are inferior and what would be better, explain why the different part is better?

There aren't really "bare minimum" parts, only choosing bare minimum properties like cutting voltage rating or power dissipation close. Example the voltage rating of the capacitor is a little on the low side. Same for a swamping resistor, low dissipation ratings. For inductors having too low a current rating and going into core saturation at higher powers, these are all upgrades for performance but have nothing to do with cost really, just poor engineering practices.
 

Holmz

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I am not sure one can fix a low quality driver performance with a $300 capacitor.

(It is like putting lipstick onto a pig)
 
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captainbeefheart

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I feel the main problem with capacitors especially in crossover/balance networks is the audio industry has made it analogous to cooking, where each brand of capacitor is like using different spices. It's not like that at all, we divide them into dielectrics because each dielectric type has slightly different properties, pros and cons and is chosen for the application. That's it really, ya I'll compare a few types of leading brand Aluminum electrolytics for say ripple current and rated life at 105° C, compare dielectric absorption (tangent) if its important for the application.

It's not a soup and they're not spices remember.
 

Holmz

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The thought that a high distortion, non-linear driver can somehow manage to sneak out the sound of a multi hundred dollar capacitor seems a bit optimistic.

Or…
Why not go active XO and get rid off all those nasty dielectrics?
 

Rednaxela

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Why not go active XO and get rid off all those nasty dielectrics?
 

Rednaxela

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How about JBL 4309?

It does seem to take some pride in its crossover and components used.
 

jae

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So what is it do you care most about, high quality parts or better sounding/performing/accurate speakers? I assume you want both, but there are plenty of objectively underperforming speakers that have use the most premium components imaginable and are still subpar. The reality is that many good speakers are not going to be using super premium or boutique quality parts and that most of them are active and not passive designs. What you should aim to look for is good engineering in general.

Polk R200 are already great passive speakers and one of these best measured bookshelf designs, and for the price is is probably one of the highest value speakers out there. Their biggest "flaws" are that they "only" go down to 50hz and the don't have the smoothness of some of the better measuring speakers. The directivity could also be better especially if you listen to them farfield. They (along with many other speakers) can be significantly enhanced with a subwoofer over buying new speakers.

Passive recommendations that may be considered better that are the next step up in price are Ascend Acoustics Sierra-LX (only $1400, American company) and March Audio Sointuva (high build quality $3500-4200, Australia), or a good price on a used Kef R3. While these speakers may be better in some regards, if you are coming from R200 there is a high chance you might consider these barely upgrades or even side-grades in terms of sonic performance depending on how you use them. Buchardt Audio A500 at $3500 is a fully active design that also performs just as well where you can ditch your amps and other electronics.

Check out sweetchaos' USA guide for passive and active speakers:


Database of speakers here, as you can see R200 is already one of the best price-to-performance speakers ever measured and outperforms most speakers:


Use that to see how similar/better scoring speakers match up to what you already have or to look for ones that may be "better". If you are sticking with passive speakers make sure whatever amp you're driving them with has enough power for the volumes you want at the distances you listen. I would not even begin to entertain the prospect of buying a speaker that is not listed in this database.
 
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JSmith

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JSmith
 

Berlin

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So, in short, for my money, I want speakers built with more than the bare minimum. Why? Because I'm not just buying sound (I know, outragious) I'm also buying an expensive product, and an expensive product, in my book, has to be made of more than the bare minimum. In light of this, can anyone please provide some recommendations? Or perhaps what I'm looking for just isn't there?
Check out Geithain speakers:

https://www.me-geithain.de/en/produkte.html
 

DanielT

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Yeh, pretty much.
Some day I'll probably sell my Pass Labs amp and just buy a pair of Dutch & Dutch 8c or something like that. I know there are plenty of great active speakers, but for the time being I'll remain with the old school amp+passive speakers.
But wait now! Roy_L you have a Pass Labs amp. Which model is it? They, Pass Labs, usually have relatively low power, right?

How is Pass Lab, in general, regarding driving speakers with low ohms, which dip in impedance? Is Pass Lab current strong?

Then to weigh in, think / count on amplifiers and the need for power in relation to the type of music, listening distance and sensitivity of the speakers:


Edit:
I may have missed, but I'm asking the question: Do you use a subwoofer? If so, do you split the signal between the subwoofer and its amplifier and the Pass Lab and the speakers? That with LP-HP filter? If not, it may be something to think about, to "relieve" both the Pass Lab and the speakers from driving the heaviest sub-frequencies. Plus, of course, you get decent bass with a good, or several good, subwoofers.:)

I had, easily, spent a little less money on a pair of bookshelf speakers to get money over to add subwoofers. But it's me. Taste may differ.:)
(plus EQ solution, at least for subwoofers, it is always needed)
 
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Roy_L

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But wait now! Roy_L you have a Pass Labs amp. Which model is it? They, Pass Labs, usually have relatively low power, right?

How is Pass Lab, in general, regarding driving speakers with low ohms, which dip in impedance? Is Pass Lab current strong?

Then to weigh in, think / count on amplifiers and the need for power in relation to the type of music, listening distance and sensitivity of the speakers:


Edit:
I may have missed, but I'm asking the question: Do you use a subwoofer? If so, do you split the signal between the subwoofer and its amplifier and the Pass Lab and the speakers? That with LP-HP filter? If not, it may be something to think about, to "relieve" both the Pass Lab and the speakers from driving the heaviest sub-frequencies. Plus, of course, you get decent bass with a good, or several good, subwoofers.:)

I had, easily, spent a little less money on a pair of bookshelf speakers to get money over to add subwoofers. But it's me. Taste may differ.:)
(plus EQ solution, at least for subwoofers, it is always needed)
The Amp is the INT-250:


As the name suggests, it's rated at 250 Watts/8 Ohms. It's really powerful enough for pretty much anything I might connect it to.
(It's interesting that the next model below, the INT-60, is only 60 watts/8Ohms. However, it's not what I got).

Also, I'm not using and don't intend to use a subwoofer. In my small living room there is enough bass (for my taste) with a pair of large bookshelf/small floorstanding speakers. I also prefer to keep it as simple as possible as an "oldschool" 2 channel system.
 
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Roy_L

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MOREL HEADQUARTERS
17 Hamazmera St.
Ness Ziona, 70400
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Tel: +972-8-9301161
Fax: +972-8-9301312
E-mail: [email protected]


JSmith
Hehe
I know these guys personally from my years in sales, still friends with one of them nowadays.
Their 5.25 inch model, the Octave Signature, is truly a wonderful speaker and I've owned a pair for years. However, I would like something bigger.
Unfortunately, they didn't recreate the magic with the 6 inch model, which falls short (to my opinion) of its smaller sibling.
 
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DanielT

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The Amp is the INT-250:


As the name suggests, it's rated at 250 Watts/8 Ohms. It's really powerful enough for pretty much anything I might connect it to.
(It's interesting that the next model below, the INT-60, is only 60 watts/8Ohms. However, it's not what I got).

Also, I'm not using and don't intend to use a subwoofer. In my small living room there is enough bass (for my taste) with a pair of large bookshelf/small floorstanding speakers. I also prefer to keep it as simple as possible as an "oldschool" 2 channel system.
Aha! 250 W/ 8 Ohm.:)

Thought more if you had a class A from Pass Lab, for example this one, 25 W. Then the choice of speakers might have become a little more difficult:

 
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Roy_L

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Aha! 250 W/ 8 Ohm.:)

Thought more if you had a class A from Pass Lab, for example this one, 25 W. Then the choice of speakers might have become a little more difficult:

It's off topic, but I seriously don't understand why anyone would want a 25 Watt amp, class A or otherwise. Even 60 is bare minimum to my opinion. This is a serious limiting factor when choosing speakers.
 

DanielT

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It's off topic, but I seriously don't understand why anyone would want a 25 Watt amp, class A or otherwise. Even 60 is bare minimum to my opinion. This is a serious limiting factor when choosing speakers.
OT:
Class A has played its part. That was then. Nowadays, sensible class AB has inaudible distortion. Not to mention the development regarding class D. It will be (perhaps already now) the melody of the future.:)

Speakers, sensible FR and low distortion, I assume that you are interested in. Then only factor remains to be weighed in: Directivity, on / off axis response. It's a matter of taste, what you like. When you listen to music, do you sit in sweetspot all the time (or most of the time) or do you like to move around in your listening room when you listen to music?

Edit:
More OT::)
Here we think about directivity:

kvalsvoll:

"It does look like there is ONE pattern that is ideal for a specific use-case. Which means there is ONE pattern that will satisfy both those who seek pin-point precision, and lots of spacious room-filling sound, in the same speaker. And a speaker for typical rooms in a home will be different from a system intended for larger arenas.

A good starting point is to realize that radiation pattern is actually a choice. Like you say - "Which dispersion pattern had you chosen?". Because many speakers designs seems to originate from defining a box, then put in some drivers that will fit inside there, and then try to fix issues after all basic properties of this speaker has been set. The typical center speaker is a good worst-case example of this approach."

 
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Roy_L

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I think I'm more a focused-sound kinda guy. I do move around, but the critical part of my brain is really up and running when I'm in the sweet spot.
 
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