Speaker recommendation around the Revel F208

[quorzar]

Hi,

atm my chain looks like this:

MiniDSP SHD > 2x Hypex NC400 DIY Mono Kits > prototype pair DIY open baffle with TangBand 1772 and 2x Eminence Alpha 15 each (see picture, 500Hh crossover, not finished wood, inspired by PureAudioProject and OmnesAudio).

Im struggeling now between buying additional 2 NC400 to setup a active crossover and play with it or to buy a commercial speaker. I like DIY and they sounds great, but I think an investment like the Revel F208 would be a big improvement. I choose Revel because of transparency and reviews.

1. Are there good alternatives for the F208 or even a better price/performance one?
2. Are there other tranparent sepeaker companies?
3. Anyone know a similar DIY solution?
4. Can I expect a big improvement?

Quo

 

[quorzar]

Anyone an idea?

 

[stevenswall]

For transparency/accuracy compared to a Revel, I'd be looking at studio monitors:

JBL M2: Haven't heard this, similarly flat to the one below, though it was beaten by a Revel speaker (maybe the Salon? Something with Be in the name.)

Genelec 8260: Incredibly flat as well, used for $5k.

Sorry that's not much help. Maybe depending on the amount of money you're investing you could take a trip to Vintage King in LA to audition things, or go by the preference scores here (Get a Genelec 8341 or larger.)

 

[Blumlein 88]

Harman tests their designs against likely competitors in the market. They see to it supposedly that theirs test better. Of course they can't test every speaker in existence, and some other companies use a similar design approach.

So going with a Revel 208 you likely have one of the better choices at that price range, and possibly the best. There are dozens of other choices that wouldn't be comparably good so you avoid possible mistakes that way. Without definite proof I think Genelec probably doesn't offer as much value as Revel though they certainly make quality speakers.

As to how this compares with DIY efforts, there is really no way for us to judge at a distance. DIY means you get much better components for the money, but whether you can turn this into a better product in the end is hard to say. It certainly can be tailored to your specific wants if you do a good job with it.

Like others I'd suggest arranging to hear the Revels or any Revels as a next step in your decision making.

The other thing is how much satisfaction do you get from DIY and pride of what you've done? At one time I'd go for DIY just for the fun of making it all happen. Now older, I'd go the other way as I just want the system to work, provide good music and get out of the way.

 

[tuga]

Harman's research results seems to have done their trick because everyone is now endorsing Revel and JBL speakers...and, simultaneously, recommending that people don't listen/compare them to other speakers because, you know, sighted-bias-mind-plays-tricks?

 

[goldark]

The Canton Vento series with the ceramic tweeters measure very well and can be had relatively cheaply on sites like Accessores4Less.

 

[Sancus]

Harman's research results seems to have done their trick because everyone is now endorsing Revel and JBL speakers...and, simultaneously, recommending that people don't listen/compare them to other speakers because, you know, sighted-bias-mind-plays-tricks?

I don't see anybody recommending that around here. The existence of sighted bias doesn't necessarily lead to the fact that listening tests are totally useless for the individual. On the contrary, I've found mono listening tests instructive, especially if you can close your eyes and swap back and forth between speakers (and I've done this in music stores with studio monitors -- I've noticed the customer service in music stores tends to be a lot more down to earth than the few hifi temples left...).

It's just helpful to be aware that your sighted conclusions don't generalize to other people, and that the bias exists, so you should consider how much it may be affecting your impressions.

And that's not really to do with Harman's research. Biases in brain/sense interaction are extremely common and well established by science. If you do any reading on brain-perception interactions, you quickly realize that our brain plays all kinds of tricks on us.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Harman's research results seems to have done their trick because everyone is now endorsing Revel and JBL speakers...and, simultaneously, recommending that people don't listen/compare them to other speakers because, you know, sighted-bias-mind-plays-tricks?

I'm not recommending not listening to other speakers. When listening to other speakers I've found Harman seems to give unusually good performance for the money on a consistent basis. That is what went quite far in convincing me their research is onto something important and more or less correct. So really in my case it was the other way around. Listening convinced me Harman has a good design method. That method is based upon their research. At that point, it makes sense to listen to Harman along with others. It also makes sense that using the data on how good loudspeakers work you can mark some choices off the list and not bother. No one can listen to all available offerings.

The F208 has a long list of highly favorable reviews done via listening. I've suggested the OP's next step is to listen to one and see if that seems like a big improvement to him.

 

[Certainkindoffool]

I'm in the same boat. I auditioned the Revel F206 and was really really impressed with them. Been trying to find a used pair of salon2's for a reasonable price near me(Ontario), but they are hard to come by. At the prices I've found, I could have the F208's and another motorcycle.

 

[Xyrium]

I also went the DIY route several times, using many John Krutke designs (Zaph), both the ZRT and his original Seas L15 design. While very enjoyable and highly educational, I never truly felt as if I was surpassing the sound of some commercially available products in their price range. At least in my room, that is.

I didn't see the picture you referenced, but unless it had subs in it, I'm thinking that I'd go the sat-sub route. If you're planning on using the 208's without subs, and plan to do any HT, you might find them lacking in the blow-down-the-doors department. For music, they are fantastic. I don't have them any longer, because my space has changed, but that are stellar for music with a well treated room, far out from the front and side walls

Would you consider the M105/M106s and a pair of subs instead? Not only would this make a highly versatile system, but also very flexible in regards to optimizing room response and placement.

 

[fitero]

I had F208, then JBL 4367, then Revel Salon 2, then JBL M2 in short succession. Bang for your buck, the F208 is it. I thought the Revel speakers a bit bland for my tastes, though they created a lovely sound-field. I find the JBL speakers more dynamic and exciting, again for my tastes. I have no intention on getting rid of the M2s. I work for a B&W and PMC dealer and could get any model at cost. I don't want to.

You need to get some seat time in front of these speakers before making a choice.

 

[Certainkindoffool]

@fitero That's reassuring to hear. The JBL models I've seen haven't sufficiently met the WAF to find a place outside the basement. Once we find a house with an appropriate basement to build a home theater in, I'll be giving the JBL and other more utilitarian speakers serious consideration.

 

[richard12511]

I had F208, then JBL 4367, then Revel Salon 2, then JBL M2 in short succession. Bang for your buck, the F208 is it. I thought the Revel speakers a bit bland for my tastes, though they created a lovely sound-field. I find the JBL speakers more dynamic and exciting, again for my tastes. I have no intention on getting rid of the M2s. I work for a B&W and PMC dealer and could get any model at cost. I don't want to.

You need to get some seat time in front of these speakers before making a choice.

How would you compare the M2 to the Salon 2?

 

[dwkdnvr]

I think it really depends on whether you have the 'diy itch' or not. If you went the DIY path just to try to save money, then ultimately that frequently doesn't pan out given the amount of work involved. However, if you already have the SHD and a pair of good amps, then you are very well positioned for a DIY system that can compete on value with the Revels. I'm actually going down the same path using the SHD, although I'm still in 'experimental' stage.
The SHD would allow using a proven 2-way design as the basis, and then adding subs/woofers. My initial recommendation would be to search out Jeff Bagby's 'Helios' design - the details are on the DIY Loudspeaker facebook group. It uses a brand-new SBAcoustics Satori BE tweeter with an integrated waveguide plus the Satori WO24p woofer which is class-leading in measured performance. He claims it's the best speaker he's designed so far, and the waveguide design should do all the good things that controlled dispersion designs do that we see in the Klippel tests. Add a couple subs powered by an iNuke or something, and you're probably looking at $2500 plus the time/labor to build something that looks nice. The result should at least ve able to equal the quality of the Revels and will extend lower and play louder.

Going with the Revels is certainly a viable path, and when you consider potential resale value might even be a better plan in the long run if you aren't 100% certain of your plans- DIY designs have very limited resale value unless they're something like a Linkwitz design, and so if you ever have to downsize etc you can take a pretty big hit. But I think something like the above idea has the potential to be a fantastic system with substantially lower cost.

 

[quorzar]

I bought a pair of used F208 this morning. Then I can listen to music on them while working on my DIY speaker.

Thanks for all the posts.

Current state of DIY speakers:

 

[fitero]

How would you compare the M2 to the Salon 2?

In my room, with the gear that I have available, and with my particular hearing I prefer the M2.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

I thought the Revel speakers a bit bland for my tastes, though they created a lovely sound-field.

I hear this a lot and it bothers me a lot. Bland can be bad but, given the wildly variable conditions under which people audition speakers (even in their homes) and the influence of unrecognized bias and variability in individual assessments, bland should be regarded as good. Bland tells you that nothing is grossly wrong, that nothing is sticking out. If, on the other hand, you now hear more clearly that subte flute motif that was previously woven into the orchestral fabric, perhaps it is not an indication of more clarity, increased transparency or higher resolving power but of a FR aberration or resonance that has the potential to color the sound from all sources.

It is easier to take notice of something that sticks out but harder to discover something that is missing or, even, just right. The question I ask of an initial apparently "bland" perception is whether there is actually something missing or whether the listener is simply disappointed that there are no new (real or perceived) revelations to titillate him. If one is used to listening to high-quality audio systems, finding a new speaker that is notably not "bland" should be a warning.

 

[vavan]

I bought a pair of used F208 this morning

looking forward to your impressions

 

[fitero]

Bland tells you that nothing is grossly wrong, that nothing is sticking out. If, on the other hand, you now hear more .

I agree with you wholeheartedly.

I think we all choose the illusion that pleases us most. In my case, and in my house I prefer the acoustic signature of the JBLs. I have moderate, high-frequency hearing loss and Tinnitus. I couldn't emulate the sound I hear with the JBLs on the Salons using the equalization that I have available.

 

[tuga]

It is easier to take notice of something that sticks out but harder to discover something that is missing or, even, just right. The question I ask of an initial apparently "bland" perception is whether there is actually something missing or whether the listener is simply disappointed that there are no new (real or perceived) revelations to titillate him. If one is used to listening to high-quality audio systems, finding a new speaker that is notably not "bland" should be a warning.

Or perhaps the speaker doesn't match the listener's preferred "presentation" (particular set of distortions).