Speaker purchase advice - KEF vs. Genelec vs. ?

[q3cpma]

By the way with great modern simulation tools and experience someone can nowadays also design loudspeakers with different but both quite perfect horizontal and vertical directivity without using coaxial drivers:
http://hannover-hardcore.de/infinity_classics/!!!/Quasikoax 1 Dokumentation.pdf

It is constant but narrow, though. Thanks for the PDF, I love mad scientist DSP contraptions like these.

 

[thewas]

It is constant but narrow, though.

Mid narrow horizontally and very narrow vertically, a real problem solver for long distances, similar to line arrays.

Thanks for the PDF, I love mad scientist DSP contraptions like these.

You're welcome, he is really a fantastic "mad scientist", here are his other papers:
http://hannover-hardcore.de/infinity_classics/!!!/

 

[andreasmaaan]

It is constant but narrow, though.

Horizontally it’s wider than Genelec’s coaxials from 1500Hz up.

 

[alont]

Quick update - after some further digging and in-depth reading of the R3 review thread here, it seems to me that with a proper EQ and well-seated shadow flare the R3 would perform very closely to the Genelec 8351B at nearly 1/5th the price.

I'm going to mull over things a bit longer before pulling the trigger, but the R3s seem to be the lead contenders at the moment.

 

[Two-eyed cyclops]

I happen to own KEF R3's with NAD M10, they are excellent pair and sounds fantastic and accurate with great bass. BUT... but I have now listened genelec 8341 in my own listening room for one week and 8351a in my friends listening room multiple times. I have to say that R3 sounds great with Dirac live and all but it competes in lighter league. I think it took roughly 10 seconds to listen 8341's to get impression about which speaker sounds better, in my real honest oppinion 8341 was clearly better in all aspects. I mean R3 is not a bad speaker, not at all, but I think it fights in different league. Mayby R3 with double subs could compete with 8341's, i haven't heard it with subs because I haven't thought that I need subs with R3's.
Comparison between 8351a and 8341 is harder. I think 8351a sound has more authority compared to 8341 but mid to high seems to be slightly accurate in 8341. The 8341s were lacking slightly in lower sound region and in some songs I was missing this ballsynes the 8351a had, otherwise they would have been perfect!
In the end, I bought 8351b and now I'm waiting impatiently 8351b's to arrive

 

[Two-eyed cyclops]

Forgot to mention that my listening distance is 3 meters and my missus immediately noticed that 8341 had sound she preferred over the R3's so the idea to buy 8351b was easily sold to her

 

[samysound]

Forgot to mention that my listening distance is 3 meters and my missus immediately noticed that 8341 had sound she preferred over the R3's so the idea to buy 8351b was easily sold to her

Hi, How large is your room? Im currently thinking about the 8341 vs 8350 vs revel F226Be (all would be high passed with subwoofer). 8351 would be ideal but is too far out of budget for me. I am having a hard time gauging if I will have encounter output limitations with the 8341

 

[BrokenEnglishGuy]

kef r3 set the crossover with the dsp at 50hz-80hz + 2 nice subs would be a dream

 

[Ron Texas]

Why use quasi anechoic measurements? What you need is in room EQ. There's nothing wrong with the OP's gear that a little bit TLC can't fix.

 

[BrokenEnglishGuy]

Hi, How large is your room? Im currently thinking about the 8341 vs 8350 vs revel F226Be (all would be high passed with subwoofer). 8351 would be ideal but is too far out of budget for me. I am having a hard time gauging if I will have encounter output limitations with the 8341

well you can buy a rel S/510 with kef r3, the 8341 isn't cheap as kef r3.
And that rel it's a dream
the subwoofer is necessary, that active speaker can get lower notes than r3 because it's passive, but if you use a minidsp with subwoofers it would sound much better, a good sub can go down to 20hz that is pretty low, also if the dsp cut the woofer at 50hz or 80hz that mean the woofer gonna work better. So it's really much better

 

[LTig]

Hello everyone,

After quite a bit of time spent researching and lurking in this forum, I've decided it's time to put theory into practice and upgrade my main speakers. Here’s my setup right now:

• MiniDSP SHD
• Red Dragon S500
• Sonus Faber Olympica I
• SVS SB2000+ SVS SB1000

The SHD is used to EQ the speakers based on quasi-anechoic measurements I’ve made, so their listening window is relatively flat. ER and PIR are less than ideal, since they don’t have the smoothest directivity. I use Dirac to sort out everything under 350hz.

Here are some measurements. Unfortunately I’ve lost the quasi-anechoic measurements made without any EQ applied, but if they are of interest, I'm willing to redo them. Note that the room measurements were done with the subwoofers off, and without Dirac correction.

Here’s a chart of my listening room (all distances are in meters):

As you can see, It’s relatively open and irregular in shape. My listening position is not centered and the room is lively despite my usage of bass traps and several absorbers placed in first reflection points.

Listening positions vary in height quite a bit, so the speaker’s rough vertical directivity is problematic. I am also unhappy with their imaging - they sound “unfocused” and I rarely get that magical feeling where the speakers "disappear" like they did when I heard them in a well-treated dedicated listening room. As a result, I'm inclined to go with a point-source option.

These are speakers I’m considering at the moment, along with their local pricing:

• KEF LS50 Meta - 1500 USD
• KEF R3 - 1800 USD

The value propositions. I'm hoping that their relatively smooth directivity means that using Dirac and my SHD's EQ, I will be able to correct most of their imperfections. The LS50 Meta are on this list because I’m planning on offloading a lot of the low-end workload to the subs, and I don’t listen to my speakers at excessively high SPL. Their measurements make it seem to me like they would be quite competitive with the R3 above 100hz - maybe even better, since they have newer tech?

• KEF Reference 1 - 8400 USD
• Genelec 8351B - 8300 USD

These are the moonshot options. I’m willing to consider them if they perform significantly better than the “budget” options.


So, dear hive mind:

1. What do you make of my upgrade candidates? Are there any other worthwhile candidates I’ve missed? Budget-wise, $9k USD is the hard limit, and ideally I’d like to spend significantly less than that.
2. Are there any other suggestions for improving my listening experience? (Adding more acoustic treatment, different speaker placement, changing listening positions, etc.)

Thank you for you time and for your help!

Before you start buying I strongly suggest to first optimize your current setup. The speakers must get off the wall, so pull them about 1m closer to your listening position and remeasure the room EQ. Then check imaging and Soundstage.

EDIT: another moonshot option would be the Neumann KH420, a midfield monitor.

 

[EchoChamber]

I happen to own KEF R3's with NAD M10, they are excellent pair and sounds fantastic and accurate with great bass. BUT... but I have now listened genelec 8341 in my own listening room for one week and 8351a in my friends listening room multiple times. I have to say that R3 sounds great with Dirac live and all but it competes in lighter league. I think it took roughly 10 seconds to listen 8341's to get impression about which speaker sounds better, in my real honest oppinion 8341 was clearly better in all aspects. I mean R3 is not a bad speaker, not at all, but I think it fights in different league. Mayby R3 with double subs could compete with 8341's, i haven't heard it with subs because I haven't thought that I need subs with R3's.
Comparison between 8351a and 8341 is harder. I think 8351a sound has more authority compared to 8341 but mid to high seems to be slightly accurate in 8341. The 8341s were lacking slightly in lower sound region and in some songs I was missing this ballsynes the 8351a had, otherwise they would have been perfect!
In the end, I bought 8351b and now I'm waiting impatiently 8351b's to arrive

I second that, I didn’t have the R3, but my Ara Be + Purifi monobloc were really special driven by the Dac8. I felt they sounded extended, natural, detailed, low distortion, and imaging really well. The sound stage was 1 to 2 meters wideer than the speakers (sometimes 180 degrees) with great depth and height depending on recordings. Even better after I applied some EQ to compensate for the room using REW and Roon. It was the most accurate passive system I’ve had so far in my living room (20+ years as an audiophile). But the 8351B just took my system to another level. Everything is better defined and resolution has improved even more. Detail retrieval is quite something. Plus much deeper and tuneful bass, even better than when I had my pair of REL subs complementing the Ara’s and much greater headroom, the 8351B’s can play much louder effortlessly. I did hesitate for quite a bit before pulling the trigger and considered other options from Genelec, PSI, Adam and Neumann... Then I said to myself: “if I’m going to do it, I might as well do it right and go all the way.” It was money well spent and I hope to keep these speakers for at least 5 years, if not longer.

 

[Two-eyed cyclops]

Hi, How large is your room? Im currently thinking about the 8341 vs 8350 vs revel F226Be (all would be high passed with subwoofer). 8351 would be ideal but is too far out of budget for me. I am having a hard time gauging if I will have encounter output limitations with the 8341

The room is 4,5m x 5,5m x 2,7m and that would be in feets 14,7ft x 18ft x 8.8ft.
I had absolutely not a single problem with spl. 8341 were easily loud enough, I measured spl using GLM mic and above 95dB the listening became unpleasant while having volume at -25dB so still more room to break my ears I really can't understand those who say 8341 can't play loud enough, mayby they have huge room or have blasted their ears off with this hobby.

I considered 8341 + 7360 or 7370 sub but the genelec subs have notably lower WAF so I went with 8351b to maintain feng shui (listening room is my living room). Bare 8341 were seriously amazing sounding speakers all around but sometimes I was left craving for those lowest frequencies so sub would compliment 8341's.

I have had R3's now for 1.5 years and I think I know them well by now. R3 have good sound separation, good soundstage and nice snappy bass but I can't come up with an attribute where R3 would excel over 8341.
All I can say is 8341 made me hear sounds that I have never heard before in songs I knew well and they made me chuckle . Haven't had that felling for a while and that ultimately led to buying the 8351b's.

 

[alont]

Why use quasi anechoic measurements? What you need is in room EQ. There's nothing wrong with the OP's gear that a little bit TLC can't fix.

I spent so much time playing around with dirac live, trying out various room curve targets... some sounded like an improvement, some sounded pretty meh. The biggest improvement by far was attained by EQing them to get a flat quasi-anechoic response above 400hz, and using dirac live to sort out everything below - that's when they really started to sing. I'm very happy with their tonality after all my tweaks, it's mostly their imaging and vertical directivity that I'm unhappy with.

I happen to own KEF R3's with NAD M10, they are excellent pair and sounds fantastic and accurate with great bass. BUT... but I have now listened genelec 8341 in my own listening room for one week and 8351a in my friends listening room multiple times. I have to say that R3 sounds great with Dirac live and all but it competes in lighter league. I think it took roughly 10 seconds to listen 8341's to get impression about which speaker sounds better, in my real honest oppinion 8341 was clearly better in all aspects. I mean R3 is not a bad speaker, not at all, but I think it fights in different league. Mayby R3 with double subs could compete with 8341's, i haven't heard it with subs because I haven't thought that I need subs with R3's.
Comparison between 8351a and 8341 is harder. I think 8351a sound has more authority compared to 8341 but mid to high seems to be slightly accurate in 8341. The 8341s were lacking slightly in lower sound region and in some songs I was missing this ballsynes the 8351a had, otherwise they would have been perfect!
In the end, I bought 8351b and now I'm waiting impatiently 8351b's to arrive

First off, allow me to express my jealousy at your purchase 8351Bs are truly end-game material and I'm so very tempted to go with them. I believe it will take quite a bit of work to EQ the R3s and integrate them with my subs, but my assumption is that the end result will sound quite close to 8351Bs at a fraction of the price. Hopefully, my assumption will prove to be correct.

Before you start buying I strongly suggest to first optimize your current setup. The speakers must get off the wall, so pull them about 1m closer to your listening position and remeasure the room EQ. Then check imaging and Soundstage.

EDIT: another moonshot option would be the Neumann KH420, a midfield monitor.

I'm afraid they cannot come so far off the wall, as I need the floor space. Also, I intentionally have them close to the front wall to minimize SBIR.

 

[Two-eyed cyclops]

First off, allow me to express my jealousy at your purchase 8351Bs are truly end-game material and I'm so very tempted to go with them. I believe it will take quite a bit of work to EQ the R3s and integrate them with my subs, but my assumption is that the end result will sound quite close to 8351Bs at a fraction of the price. Hopefully, my assumption will prove to be correct.

I think i'm going to have R3s and 8351b at the same time in my living room for few days before new owner of the R3 takes them away. I can try to analyze and compare especially the mids and trebles on both speakers and write my thoughts afterwards.

I will give you a tip how to buy 8351b's:
Just bring in one pair of the Genelec "Ones" for a test and listen to it with your significant other, in no time she/he is willing to participate in expenditures. Suddenly everything is 50% cheaper
No way I alone would have the money to buy 8351b in my early 30s, well I could, but that would be reckless accounting

 

[hardisj]

Doppler distortion and the ever changing waveguide are solved by Genelec.

How so?

 

[richard12511]

I’d recommend Sonodyne, but then someone’s going to say they’re from India, and there is noway in anyway they can do as good as the others.

Sonodyne is very strong in R&D and manufacturing, and performance/price is bang for the buck.

For that budget you should be looking at SM 3200/3300. Otherwise their SRP are superb, saving money for other uses. They have a home version for these model too, I suggest you email / fab message them directly to have a chat.

Never heard of them, but the engineering does look really solid.

 

[richard12511]

I think i'm going to have R3s and 8351b at the same time in my living room for few days before new owner of the R3 takes them away. I can try to analyze and compare especially the mids and trebles on both speakers and write my thoughts afterwards.

Please do!

 

[LTig]

Before you start buying I strongly suggest to first optimize your current setup. The speakers must get off the wall, so pull them about 1m closer to your listening position and remeasure the room EQ. Then check imaging and Soundstage.

I'm afraid they cannot come so far off the wall, as I need the floor space. Also, I intentionally have them close to the front wall to minimize SBIR.

Still you should at least try it temporarily. If the off the wall position fixes your soundstage and imaging problems than chances are not very good that a different speaker would improve on your old ones when positioned at the same place.

 

[alont]

How so?

Hey Erin, I don't have anything smart to contribute here, just thought I'd take the chance to thank you for all the high quality and interesting content you've been producing.

I think i'm going to have R3s and 8351b at the same time in my living room for few days before new owner of the R3 takes them away. I can try to analyze and compare especially the mids and trebles on both speakers and write my thoughts afterwards.

I will give you a tip how to buy 8351b's:
Just bring in one pair of the Genelec "Ones" for a test and listen to it with your significant other, in no time she/he is willing to participate in expenditures. Suddenly everything is 50% cheaper
No way I alone would have the money to buy 8351b in my early 30s, well I could, but that would be reckless accounting

If you end up doing this comparison, could you try to have the R3s EQ'd with this filter set? It will be my starting point if I end up buying the R3s.

Thank you!