Speaker purchase advice - KEF vs. Genelec vs. ?

[alont]

Hello everyone,

After quite a bit of time spent researching and lurking in this forum, I've decided it's time to put theory into practice and upgrade my main speakers. Here’s my setup right now:

• MiniDSP SHD
• Red Dragon S500
• Sonus Faber Olympica I
• SVS SB2000+ SVS SB1000

The SHD is used to EQ the speakers based on quasi-anechoic measurements I’ve made, so their listening window is relatively flat. ER and PIR are less than ideal, since they don’t have the smoothest directivity. I use Dirac to sort out everything under 350hz.

Here are some measurements. Unfortunately I’ve lost the quasi-anechoic measurements made without any EQ applied, but if they are of interest, I'm willing to redo them. Note that the room measurements were done with the subwoofers off, and without Dirac correction.

Here’s a chart of my listening room (all distances are in meters):

As you can see, It’s relatively open and irregular in shape. My listening position is not centered and the room is lively despite my usage of bass traps and several absorbers placed in first reflection points.

Listening positions vary in height quite a bit, so the speaker’s rough vertical directivity is problematic. I am also unhappy with their imaging - they sound “unfocused” and I rarely get that magical feeling where the speakers "disappear" like they did when I heard them in a well-treated dedicated listening room. As a result, I'm inclined to go with a point-source option.

These are speakers I’m considering at the moment, along with their local pricing:

• KEF LS50 Meta - 1500 USD
• KEF R3 - 1800 USD

The value propositions. I'm hoping that their relatively smooth directivity means that using Dirac and my SHD's EQ, I will be able to correct most of their imperfections. The LS50 Meta are on this list because I’m planning on offloading a lot of the low-end workload to the subs, and I don’t listen to my speakers at excessively high SPL. Their measurements make it seem to me like they would be quite competitive with the R3 above 100hz - maybe even better, since they have newer tech?

• KEF Reference 1 - 8400 USD
• Genelec 8351B - 8300 USD

These are the moonshot options. I’m willing to consider them if they perform significantly better than the “budget” options.


So, dear hive mind:

1. What do you make of my upgrade candidates? Are there any other worthwhile candidates I’ve missed? Budget-wise, $9k USD is the hard limit, and ideally I’d like to spend significantly less than that.
2. Are there any other suggestions for improving my listening experience? (Adding more acoustic treatment, different speaker placement, changing listening positions, etc.)

Thank you for you time and for your help!

 

[EchoChamber]

@alont I highly recommend the 8351B having just purchased a pair. I don't think you'll find the need for a sub... They are quite special...

Here are my first impression after calibration:
#58

 

[stevenswall]

I have a pair of 8260 monitors, which you should be able to find online for $5000, or half of your budget for the same SPL, and have similar performance to the 8351b.

8260 has a little wider dispersion and more bass extension. (I'm currently shopping for subs now that I've heard deep bass on the 8260 that gets down to 18hz in my room, just makes me want more.)

The 8351B will have more DSP capabilities though (it can apply more bands of correction if you're using GLM) and has better vertical dispersion.

Not sure how much less the 8351A costs but the off axis is more ragged and I'd definitely go with the 8260 used.


Also, if you're worried about used ones, call Genelec and ask them how much replacement parts are. The cabinets are basically invincible, woofer is $465 if the driver breaks (nearly impossible with the built in protection circuitry), amp board is $235, and is protected by a fuse anyhow which is dollars to replace.

 

[AnalogSteph]

Your present speakers are smallish with wide dispersion, that's definitely not exactly the right thing for your listening distance and fairly large room. They do seem to have fairly good level handling for the size, but I mean, they better do at close to 6000€ a pair without stands. I get that Sonus Fabers are really nicely made, but that's quite a bit of dough for some smallish 2-ways regardless.

I'd think any of your options would be a step in the right direction, but I can't help but feel that there must be more good candidates out there. What about the ADAM S3V or Neumann KH310, for example? Or the Genelec 8050? For something more budget but not to be discounted, Kali IN-8? Mackie XR-824 perhaps? And that's just the active side.

 

[stevenswall]

Oh, and for alternatives, if you aren't using them nearfield and don't mind some hiss, the IN-8 is a coaxial three way that is only $800 a pair.

 

[BrokenEnglishGuy]

Another interesting option can be KEF R3 + 2 subwoofer + minidsp for crossover speaker-sub.

 

[Neale]

I favor active speakers; but you have a nice $2000 amp already ...

 

[q3cpma]

I favor active speakers; but you have a nice $2000 amp already ...

That can be sold. Shouldn't be too hard, as the Pascal name isn't unknown.

 

[alont]

Thanks to everyone who responded. I appreciate it!

@alont I highly recommend the 8351B having just purchased a pair. I don't think you'll find the need for a sub... They are quite special...

Here are my first impression after calibration:
#58

I have no doubt they are fantastic, I'm just wondering how they fare when compared to one of the KEFs after I EQ them and integrate them with my dual subwoofers. The price difference is quite significant, after all.

I have a pair of 8260 monitors, which you should be able to find online for $5000, or half of your budget for the same SPL, and have similar performance to the 8351b.
...
Not sure how much less the 8351A costs but the off axis is more ragged and I'd definitely go with the 8260 used.

I can get a pair of 8351As that were on display for 5250 USD. I couldn't find any 8260s for sale locally, and judging by the prices online, they would cost at least 6.5k USD after shipping and import fees. At that point I'd rather shell another 2k USD to get a new pair of 8351Bs from my local authorized dealer.

Your present speakers are smallish with wide dispersion, that's definitely not exactly the right thing for your listening distance and fairly large room. They do seem to have fairly good level handling for the size, but I mean, they better do at close to 6000€ a pair without stands. I get that Sonus Fabers are really nicely made, but that's quite a bit of dough for some smallish 2-ways regardless.

I'd think any of your options would be a step in the right direction, but I can't help but feel that there must be more good candidates out there. What about the ADAM S3V or Neumann KH310, for example? Or the Genelec 8050? For something more budget but not to be discounted, Kali IN-8? Mackie XR-824 perhaps? And that's just the active side.

Just to make sure I understand you correctly - you're saying that for my room, I need something larger with narrower dispersion? Can you explain why? The additional options you mentioned are great, and I considered most of them but ultimately moved on because I prefer a point-source option if possible.

Oh, and for alternatives, if you aren't using them nearfield and don't mind some hiss, the IN-8 is a coaxial three way that is only $800 a pair.

I forgot to mention this in my original post, but I'm very sensitive to hiss. I can hear a slight hiss from my S500 at the moment, and can even hear a slight buzzing from my SHD at times. As such, I prefer something with little to no hiss, if possible.

Another interesting option can be KEF R3 + 2 subwoofer + minidsp for crossover speaker-sub.

Yes, regardless of the speakers I end up buying, I plan on setting the up with my two subwoofers using the SHD for crossover and such.

I favor active speakers; but you have a nice $2000 amp already ...

That can be sold. Shouldn't be too hard, as the Pascal name isn't unknown.

I'm absolutely open to selling the amp or making any other necessary changes in my current setup (as long as I stay on budget).

 

[richard12511]

The KEF R3 is an incredible speaker, and undoubtedly a better price/performance than the Genelec 8351b, but that's expected at the price point. You're already deep into diminishing returns already with the R3, so further improvements will be costly. The Genelec is a better speaker, though, and it just depends how much you're willing to pay to get that last 5-10%.

How does your brain work? Are you someone who, knowing you've saved a ton of money, is satisfied with slightly lesser performance? I tend to somehow end up buying the more expensive speaker I really want anyway .

 

[StevenEleven]

I’d say keep what you have and enjoy the music. Odds that you are going to enjoy the music more with more expensive gear are kind of iffy, and isn’t enjoying the music what this is all about?

 

[sweetchaos]

I'm surprised no one mentioned Revels.
Amir is about to review F328Be and Erin is about to review F226Be.

 

[q3cpma]

I'm surprised no one mentioned Revels.
Amir is about to review F328Be and Erin is about to review F226Be.

They're too expensive without haggling, though.

 

[dsnyder0cnn]

Hello everyone,

After quite a bit of time spent researching and lurking in this forum, I've decided it's time to put theory into practice and upgrade my main speakers. Here’s my setup right now:

• MiniDSP SHD
• Red Dragon S500
• Sonus Faber Olympica I
• SVS SB2000+ SVS SB1000

The SHD is used to EQ the speakers based on quasi-anechoic measurements I’ve made, so their listening window is relatively flat. ER and PIR are less than ideal, since they don’t have the smoothest directivity. I use Dirac to sort out everything under 350hz.

Here are some measurements. Unfortunately I’ve lost the quasi-anechoic measurements made without any EQ applied, but if they are of interest, I'm willing to redo them. Note that the room measurements were done with the subwoofers off, and without Dirac correction.

Here’s a chart of my listening room (all distances are in meters):

As you can see, It’s relatively open and irregular in shape. My listening position is not centered and the room is lively despite my usage of bass traps and several absorbers placed in first reflection points.

Listening positions vary in height quite a bit, so the speaker’s rough vertical directivity is problematic. I am also unhappy with their imaging - they sound “unfocused” and I rarely get that magical feeling where the speakers "disappear" like they did when I heard them in a well-treated dedicated listening room. As a result, I'm inclined to go with a point-source option.

These are speakers I’m considering at the moment, along with their local pricing:

• KEF LS50 Meta - 1500 USD
• KEF R3 - 1800 USD

The value propositions. I'm hoping that their relatively smooth directivity means that using Dirac and my SHD's EQ, I will be able to correct most of their imperfections. The LS50 Meta are on this list because I’m planning on offloading a lot of the low-end workload to the subs, and I don’t listen to my speakers at excessively high SPL. Their measurements make it seem to me like they would be quite competitive with the R3 above 100hz - maybe even better, since they have newer tech?

• KEF Reference 1 - 8400 USD
• Genelec 8351B - 8300 USD

These are the moonshot options. I’m willing to consider them if they perform significantly better than the “budget” options.


So, dear hive mind:

1. What do you make of my upgrade candidates? Are there any other worthwhile candidates I’ve missed? Budget-wise, $9k USD is the hard limit, and ideally I’d like to spend significantly less than that.
2. Are there any other suggestions for improving my listening experience? (Adding more acoustic treatment, different speaker placement, changing listening positions, etc.)

Thank you for you time and for your help!

It sounds like you are expecting new loudspeakers to solve bad room interaction problems. I've never been successful with that approach, but loudspeakers with more controlled directivity might reduce room interactions and more easily "disappear" in a less than ideal room. Personally, I would not spend $8k on gear until I could move to a home that has a more suitable listening space. I do wish you the best of luck and look forward to hearing how things go.

 

[andymok]

I’d recommend Sonodyne, but then someone’s going to say they’re from India, and there is noway in anyway they can do as good as the others.

Sonodyne is very strong in R&D and manufacturing, and performance/price is bang for the buck.

For that budget you should be looking at SM 3200/3300. Otherwise their SRP are superb, saving money for other uses. They have a home version for these model too, I suggest you email / fab message them directly to have a chat.

 

[stevenswall]

I'm surprised no one mentioned Revels.
Amir is about to review F328Be and Erin is about to review F226Be.

Amp twiddling and vertical dispersion kill it for me. I've never heard a coaxial that, all other things equal, I didn't prefer vs non-coaxial.

Maybe Revel and literally every other company will develop and use coaxial drivers in the future since there are zero inherent disadvantages (besides for main monitors with ear wrecking volume levels. Doppler distortion and the ever changing waveguide are solved by Genelec. Diffraction is solved by Genelec. Chuffing or air gap issues are solved by Genelec.) And, maybe an active version will be made now that some of the old guard companies like B&W are making them now.

Kii and Dutch & Dutch I'd have considered if they used coaxial drivers.

As it stands, D&D wouldn't send me a vertical dispersion graph so I have to assume it's total and utter trash just like every other speaker I've listened to off axis vertically.

My listening position varies though which some don't. If I'm playing a game I often sit on the floor. For a movie I'd use the couch. For an event I might be off to the side standing up eating food.

My OLED TV looks great off axis, and I'm glad my speakers match.

 

[q3cpma]

Amp twiddling and vertical dispersion kill it for me. I've never heard a coaxial that, all other things equal, I didn't prefer vs non-coaxial.

Maybe Revel and literally every other company will develop and use coaxial drivers in the future since there are zero inherent disadvantages (besides for main monitors with ear wrecking volume levels. Doppler distortion and the ever changing waveguide are solved by Genelec. Diffraction is solved by Genelec. Chuffing or air gap issues are solved by Genelec.) And, maybe an active version will be made now that some of the old guard companies like B&W are making them now.

Kii and Dutch & Dutch I'd have considered if they used coaxial drivers.

As it stands, D&D wouldn't send me a vertical dispersion graph so I have to assume it's total and utter trash just like every other speaker I've listened to off axis vertically.

My listening position varies though which some don't. If I'm playing a game I often sit on the floor. For a movie I'd use the couch. For an event I might be off to the side standing up eating food.

My OLED TV looks great off axis, and I'm glad my speakers match.

While you're preaching a bit here, I agree that we've become too complacent toward bad vertical dispersion as if it were an unbendable reality; coaxial is indeed more than a gimmick.

 

[thewas]

Doppler distortion and the ever changing waveguide are solved by Genelec. Diffraction is solved by Genelec. Chuffing or air gap issues are solved by Genelec.)

Just to be complete, modern KEF 3-ways have also kopled with those issues and actually before Genelec started with coaxials.

I personally also like coaxials but nowadays I see also a possibly disadvantage in them compared to good conventional ones, that is that you have identical horizontal and vertical directivity and in some rooms and listening distances a wide horizontal and narrow vertical directivity like from Revel etc. can be a bigger advantage than the disadvantage of the vertical lobe at the mid/tweeter crossover frequency.

 

[q3cpma]

Just to be complete, modern KEF 3-ways have also kopled with those issues and actually before Genelec started with coaxials.

I personally also like coaxials but nowadays I see also a possibly disadvantage in them compared to good conventional ones, that is that you have identical horizontal and vertical directivity and in some rooms and listening distances a wide horizontal and narrow vertical directivity like from Revel etc. can be a bigger advantage than the disadvantage of the vertical lobe at the mid/tweeter crossover frequency.

Yes, while Genelec did good work, their only real innovation is the midrange construction and bass directivity controlling 3-way coaxial layout that's more clever than just stacking a woofer and a coaxial unit like ME Geithain or Cabasse do. I'd also note that KEF's way of fighting diffraction (deep and convex midrange with "shadow flare") seem to limit them to a narrow dispersion.

 

[thewas]

By the way with great modern simulation tools and experience someone can nowadays also design loudspeakers with different but both quite perfect horizontal and vertical directivity without using coaxial drivers:
http://hannover-hardcore.de/infinity_classics/!!!/Quasikoax 1 Dokumentation.pdf