Speaker position relative to front wall (video)

[tmuikku]

A few things I find problematic:

Hi, very cool! this stuff is very rarely mentioned, yet change in listening distance changes all reflections, often quite considerably. When one moves closer to speakers delay of first specular reflections compared to direct sound increases. Also their spectra changes due to different angle from speaker to reflection point, and reflection angle in relation to HRTF changes as well. Also ratio of direct to overall reverberant sound (noise in room) changes. All these affect perception some. Also the system could be run with less power and heat and excursion, and so on.

Listening distance is single most effective way to change how a system sounds everyone should experiment with it, and it should always be given as context in any speaker/system evaluation in my opinion, has huge effect on perceived sound and as such important piece of context.

Moving oneself is also simplest, fastest and cheapest way to optimize sound of a HiFi system, way simpler than moving speakers, and instantly AB testable as it's realtime adjustment to perceived sound. But, I feel it's often ignored because idea of "main listening position" doesn't exactly promote it. Practical issues don't promote it, usually sofa is where it fits, as are the speakers. Nobody mentions listening distance in any reviews because there is no brand behind it paying for it, quite contrary system sales would likely drop if people knew about this super power, moving the butt. And, perhaps listening skill or interest toward this kind of optimization isn't high enough for everyone to be able to utilize it independently without somebody else coming over and demonstrating helping to realize there is a difference. I bet many hifi enthusiast could benefit a lot optimizing listening distance, and utilizing ability to change listening distance to improve listening skill and further refine the setup.

I bet that even with suboptimal room acoustics and speaker directivity one can get pretty nice sound, just shrink size of listening triangle enough. In a typical practical livingroon scenario speakers reside both sides of a tv, quite close to wall behind. Very likely sofa is too far away because a carpet and a table must fit between. So, go and sit on the foot rest, or on the table you might have, and take a listen. Better yet, clear out anything between sofa and speakers so you can move freely and find the good listening distance. Eyes closed. Adjust toe-in and speaker spacing if needed.

Won't fix all issues, for example the SBIR, or room modes might be unfavorable which would require some other arrangement. Still, in my opinion single most important adjustment one can do is optimize the listening distance.

 

[Cote Dazur]

system sales would likely drop if people knew about this super power, moving the butt....., just shrink size of listening triangle enough.

Thank you for posting this, so much truth in those words.
After years of trial and errors, if one does not give up, the only path is recognizing you need to seat closer, much closer, with speaker and seat well away from any boundaries and discover than any system can play it all in terms of clarity, impact, soundstage, frequency extension.
If stuck with conventional placement:

Then I feel sorry for you.

 

[tmuikku]

Yeah your photo illustrates the reality for most, practical positioning.

This kind of practical positioning is fine most of the time because listening is often background listening, but, it's quite easy to take an extra chair and put it to a close proximity when ever there is time and opportunity to really listen. There is no necessity to buy anything to improve sound, just use an extra chair for occasional close listening. One could optimize positioning for the close proximity listening position, sound doesn't change that much at the too far sofa position because it's the "room noise" there anyway. And as you say, this close listening might be really close, surprisingly close, like 1.5m spacing or so.

If one must improve sound at the practical listening position, then one must resort to improve room acoustics and likely get narrow coverage speakers. Much more work and expense do it this way.

 

[sigbergaudio]

Hi, very cool! this stiff is very rarely mentioned, yet change in listening distance changes all reflections, often quite considerably. Delay of first specular reflections conpared to direct sound increases and also their spectra changes due to different angle from speaker to reflection point. Also their angle in relation to HRTF changes. Also ratio of direct to overall reverberant sound (noise in room) changes. All these affect perception some, but also the system could run with less power and heat and excursion, and so on.

Listening distance is single most effective way to change how a system sounds everyone should experiment with it, and it should aways be given as context in any speaker/system evaluation in my opinion, has huge effect on perceived sound and as such important piece of context.

Moving oneself is also simplest, fastest and cheapest way to optimize sound of hifi system, way simpler than moving speakers, and instantly AB testable as it's realtime adjustment to perceived sound. But, I feel it's often ignored because idea of "main listening position" doesn't exactly promote it. Practical issues don't promote it, usually sofa is where it fits, as are the speakers. Nobody mentions listening distance in any reviews because there is no brand behind it paying for it, quite contrary system sales would likely drop if people knew about this super power, moving the butt. And, perhaps listening skill or interest toward tgis optimization isn't high enough to be able to utilize it independently. I bet most hifi folk could benefit a lot optimizing listening distance, and utilzing ability to change distance to improve listening skill and further refine the setup.

I bet that even with suboptimal room acoustics and speaker directivity one can get pretty nice sound, just shrink size of listening triangle enough. In a typical practical livingroon scenario speakers reside both sides of a tv, quite close to wall behind. Likely sofa is too far away, so go and sit on the foot rest or on the table you might have and take a listen. Better yet, clear out anything between sofa and speakers so you can move freely and find the good listening distance. Eyes closed. Adjust toe-in and speaker spacing if needed.

Won't fix all issues, for example the SBIR, or room modes might be unfavorable which would require some other arrangement. Still, in my opinion single most important adjustment one can do is optimize the listening distance.

The super power "moving the butt", I like that.

Many good points here, and I certainly agree. In my dedicated listening room I've rotated the entire room three times the last couple of years. First I had the system on one of the shortest walls, then I rotated it 90 degrees to one of the long walls. And recently I rotated it 180 degrees to the opposite long wall. Listening distance and width between speakers is also something that has change along the way.

 

[Old_School_Brad]

I'll just say this, I don’t really trust the guy, especially considering his close affiliation with another YouTube personality.
The added variables between the different sound clips, subwoofer, absorbers, toe-in -make the comparisons pretty much useless, or at the very least, questionable.

Yes, different speakers behave differently depending on their distance from front and side walls -that’s hardly groundbreaking.
Yes, imaging changes with toe-in and/or listener distance -again, something anyone remotely serious about home listening should already be aware of.

Sorry if this comes off as overly negative, but he presents it like he’s stumbled onto some secret “hack” for better sound, when in reality, it’s just basic stuff. And if someone didn’t already know it, they could find that info in the speaker manual, which usually includes recommendations for placement and toe-in.

 

[tmuikku]

The super power "moving the butt", I like that.

Hah, I like that too, for some reason I have a mental picture of "audiophile" sitting on the throne for years never moving from it while chasing clarity and imaging and all that by buying new speakers and amplifiers. Only to notice the good sound he chased wasn't in the gear but in his own auditory system inside the head and could have perceived the good sound just by moving a bit closer, indirectly affecting how auditory system makes the nice perception. Well, likely most of us already do this either knowingly or without thinking about it too much. It's just an example how powerful this idea is in general: no matter how good the gear is the sound isn't delivering if one is listening too far away so that auditory system doesn't get aligned with what one wants to perceive.

It's quite far reaching thing in many ways. "too far" listening distance gives this spacious feeling wide image, but it comes with poor clarity because the image is achieved by relatively loud frontal early reflections which by definition makes the sound just noise for the brain and there is never clarity to it. Clarity happens only when brain pays attention to direct sound and we can't force it, except by making the sound source "appear close enough" brain does it automatically. When this happens the image might feel too narrow because auditory now suppresses the noise, the artificial width, especially with sighted bias. This could be improved at least some by optimizing adjusting speaker spacing and toe-in to affect the main image feel natural size, but also try listen for envelopment, sound that seems to be all around you. I bet many people hear this and think it's too dry and boring, and revert back to the "too far" low hanging fruit.

Improving envelopment could be simplified as an attempt to reduce early reflections that happen in front of listening position and increase later reflections from sides and behind, all around, the "late reverberation". Even simple room acoustics tricks and adjusting toe-in can have quite big effect here, something one would not notice at all when listening at the "too far". Perhaps even some additional sound sources, stereo subs, and so on, could really help with it. One would likely want to be as far as possible to have loud reverberation, but close enough for perception to provide clarity (suppress effect of early reflections).

The typical "too far away frontal early reflection dominated perception" is kinda nice spacious relaxing sound, and right ticket for some situations like for background music because you'd want brain to concentrate on some other thing than the music. Just don't get fooled by it, there is better sound available with the smaller listening triangle, as long as one now takes some effort to try and enhance envelopment. Now perceived sound should have all the adjectives we see on reviews, the HiFi sound. And, in fact there is now two desirable sounds available, the relaxing one and the involving one, and you could swap between by moving the butt.