Speaker placement help needed (low end struggles)

[Jiraya369]

Hey guys I got the Adam T5V based on Amir's review and above ~200 hz to my ears it sounds phenomenal. But the bass is really wonky. For some reason it doesn't have much below 100 hz, and 100-200 hz it's quite boosted it feels like, or maybe 100 hz and lower is not there and 100-200 hz is normal and that is making it seem boosted? idk. I did some sine sweeps and below 100 hz i dont hear much but there's still some peaks and stuff and i did some eq to get rid of those. It sounds a lot cleaner but i feel like it's still not the greatest. I don't really know what to do. I was thinking perhaps putting em on the desktop flat was the issue, i have some pucks but decided to prop em up a little with 2 pucks in the front but it still doesnt feel like anything changed. Is the desk causing any issues?

Thinking of getting speaker stands to put behind the desk, will that be good enough or will the desk still be an issue? How far do i even sit from the speakers anyways? And how do i measure the distance between speakers? It's easy to measure the distance from my ears to the tweeter but what would be the point from speaker to speaker? cus they're toed in it's a bit hard to know.

I'm saving up for an RSL Speedwoofer 10e, Wiim Ultra (to manage the bass) and a UMIK-1. If i could just get a good response down to 50 hz it'd be nice. I get a random, really nice peak at ~48 hz but apart from that and a few peaks here and there i don't hear much under 100hz.

Room measurements :

Table : 120 cm wide x 60 cm deep
Height from floor : 29 inches or 75 cm (top of table)



Distance from ear desktop : 0.45-0.55m or 17.5-21 inches
distance from ear stands : 0.9-1.15m or 37-45 inches

Ear height : 46 inches from floor



Room :

Height : 272 cm
Width : 320 cm
Depth : 360 cm

the layout of the room :

^ just a rough idea. i pulled the table to the middle so i can listen from there, i have a bed and a cabinet behind me and to my left is a door so i need some space for it.

Right now I am 0.75m from the speakers. So if i get the stands it'll be around 1-1.5m. If I get to ~1.8m and in the middle of the room or a bit towards the final 3rd of the room, i get some strong bass response around 40-60hz. But still not as nice as i'd like.

EQ i used that sounded a bit nicer :

Preamp: -6 dB
Filter 1: ON HSC Fc 5500 Hz Gain -3 dB Q 1
Filter 2: ON PK Fc 56 Hz Gain 6 dB Q 2.2737
Filter 4: ON PK Fc 46 Hz Gain -8.5 dB Q 6
Filter 5: ON PK Fc 78 Hz Gain -6 dB Q 6
Filter 6: ON PK Fc 111 Hz Gain -7.5 dB Q 6
Filter 7: ON PK Fc 218 Hz Gain -7 dB Q 6
Filter 8: ON LSC Fc 90 Hz Gain 1.5 dB Q 0.9

first filter was based on amir, 2nd one was to get some low end back based on spinorama eq and the rest is just me eq'ing out frequencies based on a sine sweep and the low shelf is to just gain some low end back


Is a subwoofer all I can do or will getting stands and sitting a bit further back fix it? I tried moving the speakers back and forth from the wall, from 15 to 35 cm from the wall and i didnt really feel much changing. Honest to God bro it sounds so nice above 500 hz i cant trust anything underneath it properly. I tried using some random app to see the response on my phone but it doesn't look right at all. Any help will be much appreciated. Thank you.

 

[Mishaiger]

Hello. In these graphs you can see frequency response of your speakers (in red), as measured. Green is your eq. And blue is room simulation based on what you wrote about room.

You reduced 110 and 220hz, there can really be peaks there because of your room. Although REW suggests that there was already dip at those frequencies, no big deal, furniture can influence this. This is why UMIK-1 would be of great help, to measure and equalize exactly for your room.

As you can see in blue graph, it shows exactly what you are describing, no bass lower than 100hz, but some in 40-60hz range. I suggest you download REW and play in its Room sim. REW can also generate all kind of test signals.

For example, if you move your listening position in the corner, you will get the bass you want from your speakers. Although, corner can make mid and high worse, so that's that.

About subwoofer. In my personal experience, i could always hear if subwoofer plays from left of right, if positioned there. I don't know if its distortion, room interactions or something else, but if subwoofer positioned in one side, or the other, i could hear bass from that direction. Like pressure in only one ear, but not the other? I don't know. For that reason, i recommend either placing subwoofer at the center or using two or more subwoofers.
I checked in Room sim, and if you place subwoofer under your table at your current position, you will get same dip in bass. Corner placement is great, but be aware that you could, or not, hear bass from that corner. And you could, or not, tolerate that. Ideally you should use two subs in corners, if you want to remain at your current position in room.

WiiM Ultra is okay. But if you use PC to play audio, then you can use EQ APO on windows, or something similar on Linux. You could buy multichannel DAC and manage each channel separately using PC; equalize, create active crossovers, delay, anything. That's just a thought though.

 

[Jiraya369]

Hello. In these graphs you can see frequency response of your speakers (in red), as measured. Green is your eq. And blue is room simulation based on what you wrote about room.
View attachment 494617
You reduced 110 and 220hz, there can really be peaks there because of your room. Although REW suggests that there was already dip at those frequencies, no big deal, furniture can influence this. This is why UMIK-1 would be of great help, to measure and equalize exactly for your room.

As you can see in blue graph, it shows exactly what you are describing, no bass lower than 100hz, but some in 40-60hz range. I suggest you download REW and play in its Room sim. REW can also generate all kind of test signals.

View attachment 494618
For example, if you move your listening position in the corner, you will get the bass you want from your speakers. Although, corner can make mid and high worse, so that's that.

About subwoofer. In my personal experience, i could always hear if subwoofer plays from left of right, if positioned there. I don't know if its distortion, room interactions or something else, but if subwoofer positioned in one side, or the other, i could hear bass from that direction. Like pressure in only one ear, but not the other? I don't know. For that reason, i recommend either placing subwoofer at the center or using two or more subwoofers.
I checked in Room sim, and if you place subwoofer under your table at your current position, you will get same dip in bass. Corner placement is great, but be aware that you could, or not, hear bass from that corner. And you could, or not, tolerate that. Ideally you should use two subs in corners, if you want to remain at your current position in room.

WiiM Ultra is okay. But if you use PC to play audio, then you can use EQ APO on windows, or something similar on Linux. You could buy multichannel DAC and manage each channel separately using PC; equalize, create active crossovers, delay, anything. That's just a thought though.

omg what in the world, i wasn't just hearing random things then haha!

And dang, although I love bass, i can't compromise the stunningly beautiful mids and highs. So i'm just going to stick to this spot. I'm guessing me putting them on the desk is also messing up the frequency response somewhat? Desk bounce and all that.

And hmmm interesting take about subwoofers but I think i'd rather take a plunge and see what happens, need muh bass! haha

Oh and btw, I have a Topping DX5 II DAC. Is it possible to somehow have speaker and subs playing at the same time and having EQ APO recognize one and the other and handle them separately? And what about stands? Would using them behind the table help?

thank you so much for the amazing answer btw!

 

[Jiraya369]

Hello. In these graphs you can see frequency response of your speakers (in red), as measured. Green is your eq. And blue is room simulation based on what you wrote about room.
View attachment 494617
You reduced 110 and 220hz, there can really be peaks there because of your room. Although REW suggests that there was already dip at those frequencies, no big deal, furniture can influence this. This is why UMIK-1 would be of great help, to measure and equalize exactly for your room.

As you can see in blue graph, it shows exactly what you are describing, no bass lower than 100hz, but some in 40-60hz range. I suggest you download REW and play in its Room sim. REW can also generate all kind of test signals.

View attachment 494618
For example, if you move your listening position in the corner, you will get the bass you want from your speakers. Although, corner can make mid and high worse, so that's that.

About subwoofer. In my personal experience, i could always hear if subwoofer plays from left of right, if positioned there. I don't know if its distortion, room interactions or something else, but if subwoofer positioned in one side, or the other, i could hear bass from that direction. Like pressure in only one ear, but not the other? I don't know. For that reason, i recommend either placing subwoofer at the center or using two or more subwoofers.
I checked in Room sim, and if you place subwoofer under your table at your current position, you will get same dip in bass. Corner placement is great, but be aware that you could, or not, hear bass from that corner. And you could, or not, tolerate that. Ideally you should use two subs in corners, if you want to remain at your current position in room.

WiiM Ultra is okay. But if you use PC to play audio, then you can use EQ APO on windows, or something similar on Linux. You could buy multichannel DAC and manage each channel separately using PC; equalize, create active crossovers, delay, anything. That's just a thought though.

update : I moved a myself to the place where you recommended, well as close as i could've gotten anyway, and it sounds a lot better!! There's still a dip but NOWHERE near as bad as what i had before. I can at least hear SOMETHING.

I'm guessing a subwoofer will help, i downloaded REW and did loads of messing around with room sims and stuff and it seems a sub is gonna be a good fix. How do people even use their full range speakers by themselves? The low end is destroyed without proper calibration!

 

[Keith_W]

How do people even use their full range speakers by themselves? The low end is destroyed without proper calibration!

Exactly.

 

[LevityProject]

This will get you objectively Flat to 70hz. You are right, there isn't much below that in these speakers as they start to roll off at 70hz. They would benefit from a sub woofer to get them down to 30hz. But you can also do a low shelf boost at 60hz until you hear more sub bass. Just watch out for build-up between 70-100hz due to the curve of the shelf.

+1 dB @ 350 Hz, Q 1.0
–1 dB @ 700 Hz, Q 1.0
-0.5db @ 1.8khz Q 1.0
–2.5 dB high-shelf @ 5.5 kHz, Q 1.0
–2 dB @ 5.5 kHz, Q 2.0
+2 dB high-shelf @ 18 kHz, Q 1.0

This is the research I did to get the above EQ values

Adam T5V Review (Studio Monitor)

Hi there, mates. This is my first post. I've been reading reviews and whatnot and it's been very illustrative. Thank you all for sharing your knowledge. I have a doubt about these T5V. The preference score is well below the JBL 305P mkII or the Pioneer DJ VM-50. But the conclusions of the...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Other things that are influencing what you hear ... bare walls with no treatment. Drywall slaps back at 2-3khz, which can mask the low end and make things feel thinner than they actually are. You are also very close to the wall, which could be the upper bass boost you are hearing. You've also got the speakers up on two round stands. 2-inch thick foam would be much better for absorption and give you a cleaner low end.

 

[Jiraya369]

This will get you objectively Flat to 70hz. You are right, there isn't much below that in these speakers as they start to roll off at 70hz. They would benefit from a sub woofer to get them down to 30hz. But you can also do a low shelf boost at 60hz until you hear more sub bass. Just watch out for build-up between 70-100hz due to the curve of the shelf.

+1 dB @ 350 Hz, Q 1.0
–1 dB @ 700 Hz, Q 1.0
-0.5db @ 1.8khz Q 1.0
–2.5 dB high-shelf @ 5.5 kHz, Q 1.0
–2 dB @ 5.5 kHz, Q 2.0
+2 dB high-shelf @ 18 kHz, Q 1.0

This is the research I did to get the above EQ values

Adam T5V Review (Studio Monitor)

Hi there, mates. This is my first post. I've been reading reviews and whatnot and it's been very illustrative. Thank you all for sharing your knowledge. I have a doubt about these T5V. The preference score is well below the JBL 305P mkII or the Pioneer DJ VM-50. But the conclusions of the...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Other things that are influencing what you hear ... bare walls with no treatment. Drywall slaps back at 2-3khz, which can mask the low end and make things feel thinner than they actually are. You are also very close to the wall, which could be the upper bass boost you are hearing. You've also got the speakers up on two round stands. 2-inch thick foam would be much better for absorption and give you a cleaner low end.

thanks for this but the other guy was right. I was in the middle part of the top part of the room and had NO bass at 50-100 hz. Moved to the right and a lot of it came back. If i take 3 steps back it suddenly increases a lot again and REW's room sim also has a similar thing

Treatment or not, I think I'd just benefit from a sub lol

 

[LevityProject]

It does pay to figure out your rooms modes.

https://amcoustics.com/tools/amroc?l=10&w=16&h=8&sl=0&sw=0&sh=0&tl=16.4&tw=13.12&th=9.84&rt60=0.5&ft=true

 

[MAB]

You desk is likely adding a large boost around 150 Hz. Here is a paper that studies the 'average' desk contribution.

https://assets.ctfassets.net/4zjnzn055a4v/1GKiueHajGWaHntngcGy2K/6bb26d0fc6bd7f427de6ae0b9dc10804/2004_goldberg_makivirta_varla.pdf

Your results will vary due to your room, but on average your desk will boost ~150 Hz, by ~3.5 dB, with a Q of ~3.2

Compare to your EQ:

Filter 1: ON HSC Fc 5500 Hz Gain -3 dB Q 1
Filter 2: ON PK Fc 56 Hz Gain 6 dB Q 2.2737
Filter 4: ON PK Fc 46 Hz Gain -8.5 dB Q 6
Filter 5: ON PK Fc 78 Hz Gain -6 dB Q 6
Filter 6: ON PK Fc 111 Hz Gain -7.5 dB Q 6
Filter 7: ON PK Fc 218 Hz Gain -7 dB Q 6
Filter 8: ON LSC Fc 90 Hz Gain 1.5 dB Q 0.9

The 111 Hz and 218 Hz filters may partially address your desk, but look a bit too narrow and may be just below and above your actual desk mode, but would need some measurements to tell for sure. And your listening position inside your room will definitely play a large roll, especially with the squarish dimensions. The narrow notches at 46 and 78 Hz with the broader boost at 56 Hz may or may not be helping as much as desired. And may not be audibly better if you still have excess ~150 Hz energy due to the desk.

For sure a mic will help, I am just guessing at your actual sound. Moving your speakers onto stands won't eliminate the proximity effect to the desk, but will allow additional flexibility to find good position. In the end, you likely need a simple mic setup to evaluate all of these changes if you really want to get to the bottom of things. Adding a subwoofer can definitely help, but it would be good to iron out your actual room before adding a sub.

If no mic, you may try just a simple filter around ~150 Hz, and listen to see if just one broad filter can reduce the potentially wonky desk issue. Then start working out your room contribution to your overall sound, which in your case is quite simple given the dimensions of your room. Pink noise and sweeps are useful for helping your ears to identify peaks and nulls. Sweeps also help find other room resonances and distortions, like vibrating ducts. Music kind of sucks for sorting all of this out, go figure.

 

[Jiraya369]

You desk is likely adding a large boost around 150 Hz. Here is a paper that studies the 'average' desk contribution.
View attachment 499968

https://assets.ctfassets.net/4zjnzn055a4v/1GKiueHajGWaHntngcGy2K/6bb26d0fc6bd7f427de6ae0b9dc10804/2004_goldberg_makivirta_varla.pdf

Your results will vary due to your room, but on average your desk will boost ~150 Hz, by ~3.5 dB, with a Q of ~3.2

Compare to your EQ:


The 111 Hz and 218 Hz filters may partially address your desk, but look a bit too narrow and may be just below and above your actual desk mode, but would need some measurements to tell for sure. And your listening position inside your room will definitely play a large roll, especially with the squarish dimensions. The narrow notches at 46 and 78 Hz with the broader boost at 56 Hz may or may not be helping as much as desired. And may not be audibly better if you still have excess ~150 Hz energy due to the desk.

For sure a mic will help, I am just guessing at your actual sound. Moving your speakers onto stands won't eliminate the proximity effect to the desk, but will allow additional flexibility to find good position. In the end, you likely need a simple mic setup to evaluate all of these changes if you really want to get to the bottom of things. Adding a subwoofer can definitely help, but it would be good to iron out your actual room before adding a sub.

If no mic, you may try just a simple filter around ~150 Hz, and listen to see if just one broad filter can reduce the potentially wonky desk issue. Then start working out your room contribution to your overall sound, which in your case is quite simple given the dimensions of your room. Pink noise and sweeps are useful for helping your ears to identify peaks and nulls. Sweeps also help find other room resonances and distortions, like vibrating ducts. Music kind of sucks for sorting all of this out, go figure.

i have no problem with the desk bounce, not anymore at least and i've actually changed speakers and am using an adam d3v. I have the desk dip switch enabled and it's alright now actually

Basically after i made that post i corrected the desk bounce myself BUT it was just a small update. For me, the low end matters and the lack of frequencies between 55-90 hz really hurt my enjoyment. The desk bounce wasn't too big a problem for me as lowering the peaks with sine sweeps helped.

 

[MAB]

i have no problem with the desk bounce, not anymore at least and i've actually changed speakers and am using an adam d3v. I have the desk dip switch enabled and it's alright now actually

Basically after i made that post i corrected the desk bounce myself BUT it was just a small update. For me, the low end matters and the lack of frequencies between 55-90 hz really hurt my enjoyment. The desk bounce wasn't too big a problem for me as lowering the peaks with sine sweeps helped.

OK, great. The Desk settings on the D3V are really useful for your setup. Glad your new listening position is helping with the cancelation issues.

 

[Jiraya369]

It does pay to figure out your rooms modes.

https://amcoustics.com/tools/amroc?l=10&w=16&h=8&sl=0&sw=0&sh=0&tl=16.4&tw=13.12&th=9.84&rt60=0.5&ft=true

i did use this at first but it's best to do a sine sweep and that's what i did, I used a sine sweep to find out the biggest peaks and turn them down by ear and then i cross checked with this and i was really close actually

 

[Jiraya369]

OK, great. The Desk settings on the D3V are really useful for your setup. Glad your new listening position is helping with the cancelation issues.

yeah on the d3v i used the desk switch but on my t5v i just put in a peak filter around 200-270 hz i forgot where, with a q of 2 and negative gain of 1-2. It worked wonders but fixing room modes did a far better change!