- Thread Starter
- #21
I am sorry for my ignorance... how do I do that? I listened to my music as well as theirs.
From various measurements, I can see that I can move closer and further by about 0.5 foot back and forth and get the same measurements.
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Speaker placement and room feedback please
- Thread starter astolfo
- Start date
I am sorry for my ignorance... how do I do that? I listened to my music as well as theirs.
From various measurements, I can see that I can move closer and further by about 0.5 foot back and forth and get the same measurements.
Hipper
Addicted to Fun and Learning
I too had to learn all this over the years and still only know a fraction of what REW can do!
On the SPL tab, go to the top right corner and you'll see a button called 'Limits'. Click on that and you can set the parameters of your graph. Also in that corner is 'Controls'. Here you can set various 'smoothings'. I use 'no smoothing' for the bass region as it shows it warts and all. Higher up the frequency range it's better to use something like '1/12 smoothing'.
When measuring the left speaker, I place the microphone exactly where my left ear would be, pointing towards the speaker. If I measure both speakers at the same time I place the mic where the middle of my head would be, pointing to the middle point between the speakers. Others may use different mic placements including one called MMM - moving mic measurement:
http://www.ohl.to/audio/downloads/MMM-moving-mic-measurement.pdf
My view is that any measurement system you use must be consistent so you can make comparisons of your measurements, but that measurements generally are just a guide, as are measurement graphs. Microphones don't hear like our ears and brain so don't get obsessed about all this. Look at all this as tools to move you towards a sound that will be reasonably accurate but above all, that you will like.
Bass extension(how low it goes) look good.
The review I read said it was light in the bass, not punchy, etc. I have found this to be the case with coaxial speakers like Tannoy.
Did you measure with you mic at listening postition?
The review I read said it was light in the bass, not punchy, etc. I have found this to be the case with coaxial speakers like Tannoy.
Did you measure with you mic at listening postition?
Hipper
Addicted to Fun and Learning
With no smoothing that is remarkably good. If you look on this thread you will see the results of others. Mine is post 60 and note the 'No Treatment - Full Treatment' graph and how 'rough' the No Treatment FR is. It also spans a range of around 40dB:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...in-room-measurements.13540/page-3#post-411614
Your issues seem to be the dip at 85Hz, hump at 95Hz and the dips at 185Hz. For the 185Hz one, the very deep narrow dip may not be audible but the wider gap there may well be. If you can't use EQ/DSP then the only tools you have are positioning, room treatment, or careful use of subwoofers. The latter may be the best solution but I have no experience of them.
Could you show us a full range FR graph (20Hz-20kHz), perhaps 1/12th smoothing.
- Thread Starter
- #27
I measured just where I listen. I did not make more measurements because I wanted to keep it simple until I can get a little grasp on what all these graphs do/say about my room and equipment.
- Thread Starter
- #28
Because there is a fireplace right in front of the shallow niche so I cant put the couch there.
Here is a panoramic exactly from where I listen.
- Thread Starter
- #29
Hello Hipper, thank you for the feedback, would you mind telling me what the peaks and dips mean? Do peaks mean that there is a set of frequencies being amplified by the room/speaker position? I am sorry but English is my nth language so I do not know the words to describe better.
What does the phase graph represent?
Thank you for being so generous with your time and knowledge.
no smoothing
1/12 smoothing
Last edited:
Hipper
Addicted to Fun and Learning
Peaks are high points on the graph, dips are low points. If a frequency has a peak it will play louder then the rest of the frequencies, and of course if it has a dip it will play quieter. This means for example on your graph that a note around 95Hz will sound about 15dB louder then a note of 85Hz. 15dB is an obvious difference. That's why we want a smooth frequency response (FR), especially in the bass region.
Phase is a complicated business and I don't pretend to understand it fully. What I will say is that I made no attempt to alter the phase as I don't have the tools but it does become smoother as you improve the FR.
An attempt to explain phase for music:
https://www.uaudio.com/blog/understanding-audio-phase
This is what REW says about the phase graphs.
https://www.roomeqwizard.com/help/help_en-GB/html/graph_splphase.html
Here's a view of your phase 'unwrapped':
Actually yours looks pretty good. In simple terms the less dotted lines you see (in the 'wrapped' graph) the smoother the phase is. Most people find smoother phase sounds better. Here are my phase diagrams for before and after room treatment.
As the FR gets smoother so does the phase.
The issue for us listeners is that bass wavelengths are similar to our room size - for example 100Hz as a wavelength of 3.43 metres. Because of this it is more difficult to get bass right in a normal sized listening room. That's why when you listen to bass and walk around your room it will sound different in different locations. Our aim is get the bass sound as smooth as possible at the listening position.
Phase is a complicated business and I don't pretend to understand it fully. What I will say is that I made no attempt to alter the phase as I don't have the tools but it does become smoother as you improve the FR.
An attempt to explain phase for music:
https://www.uaudio.com/blog/understanding-audio-phase
This is what REW says about the phase graphs.
https://www.roomeqwizard.com/help/help_en-GB/html/graph_splphase.html
Here's a view of your phase 'unwrapped':
Actually yours looks pretty good. In simple terms the less dotted lines you see (in the 'wrapped' graph) the smoother the phase is. Most people find smoother phase sounds better. Here are my phase diagrams for before and after room treatment.
As the FR gets smoother so does the phase.
The issue for us listeners is that bass wavelengths are similar to our room size - for example 100Hz as a wavelength of 3.43 metres. Because of this it is more difficult to get bass right in a normal sized listening room. That's why when you listen to bass and walk around your room it will sound different in different locations. Our aim is get the bass sound as smooth as possible at the listening position.
- Thread Starter
- #31
WOW thank you for the explanation.
i HAD the lower level EQ from shit and it didn't work right. In fact, they sent me a 2nd one and it had all the same problems.
Intermittent channels cutting in and out
intermittent static
channel balance mismatch
and it had what I call a bad sound.
But their higher level balance model MIGHT be better.
Here is one thing to consider about your "all analog" idea. If it is for the sake of simplicity, great!
If it is because you want to keep the signal path "all analog, well, you are too late
Source music. The recording has already passed through MULTIPLE AD/DA pathways. 99.( percent of recordings are recorded to digital, then it either stays digital or gets sent back out into outboard analog gear before returning to digital. Then it gets sent to a mastering engineer how send it out again and back in. then it's burned into a CD or pressed into vinyl
AD-- Recording is made
DA--outboard gear---AD
DA--mastering done--AD
That means it's already been converted at least 5 times, but with high end DAC.
Intermittent channels cutting in and out
intermittent static
channel balance mismatch
and it had what I call a bad sound.
But their higher level balance model MIGHT be better.
Here is one thing to consider about your "all analog" idea. If it is for the sake of simplicity, great!
If it is because you want to keep the signal path "all analog, well, you are too late
Source music. The recording has already passed through MULTIPLE AD/DA pathways. 99.( percent of recordings are recorded to digital, then it either stays digital or gets sent back out into outboard analog gear before returning to digital. Then it gets sent to a mastering engineer how send it out again and back in. then it's burned into a CD or pressed into vinyl
AD-- Recording is made
DA--outboard gear---AD
DA--mastering done--AD
That means it's already been converted at least 5 times, but with high end DAC.
Hipper
Addicted to Fun and Learning
I agree with this. If you can find a DSP device with a reasonably good ADC (analogue to digital converter) and DAC the benefits from improved sound from the EQ/DSP far outweighs any losses there may be from the conversions.
Here are some reviews on this site of such equipment:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?pages/Audio_Equipment_Reviews/
In the 'Type' box, look for 'DSP Interface'.
Maybe some tube trap bass traps would do more for you than DSP?
I am currently helping a friend run countless tests on ASC tube trap/attack wall stuff for studios and I can tell you the bass improvement is amazing.
Did you mention details about your room
size, ceiling height, floor type, carpet? that would be good to know
I am currently helping a friend run countless tests on ASC tube trap/attack wall stuff for studios and I can tell you the bass improvement is amazing.
Did you mention details about your room
size, ceiling height, floor type, carpet? that would be good to know
- Thread Starter
- #35
I go to great lengths to keep everything as simple and undisturbed because I have about 750 original pressings from the early 70s that I have been buying since then, and some original pressings that I have bought later on. My entire chain is tube, the phono stage is Manley Lab Steelhead, the amplifier is a Primaluna 300, and speakers are Tannoy's Kensington.
I do have a NAIM ND 555 streamer, that is connected to the Steelhead, for when I am not actively listening, like working, dinner, or when friends come for dinner.
When I, and most of my friends, listen my records and then I play the same recording in the Naim there is no question from where the sound comes, this is why I do not want to introduce an EQ.
I am fortunate enough to be meticulous about my records so in the vast majority of my records don't have scratches so the sound is clear and I hope I can correct the lows and highs with different tubes, moving furniture and adding some sound proofing.
I appreciate the generous and informed feedback, and I hope that as I change the room and tubes you keep giving me your insights and advice.
- Thread Starter
- #36
I would love your feedback. the furniture and speakers are not in the place it shows, the couch is about 3 feet from the back wall and the speakers are 2.75 feet from the back wall and 1.3 feet from the side wall. these are the measurements for the mentioned positions.
Nice gear.
The first thing you should try is pushing the speakers closer to the corners a little bit at a time.
You can get the most data this way
1. Measure Left, then right, than L+R at current position
2. Move a few inches closer to wall and repeat
Left, then right, then L+R
do this until you get as close to each corner as you can. Current position plus 3 more should tell you enough.
Moving closer to a wall will give you bass boost like an EQ but for free.
The trick is to get the right boost without getting huge peaks.
EDIT
You may want to move you couch(ear position) 5.5feet away from the wall first. this should even out the bass and give you a smoother response.
However your room has to ports(openings) so it so you may need to experiment.
1. Move and measure speakers to get more bass boost
2. Move couch around to around 5 feet away from wall and remeasure
The first thing you should try is pushing the speakers closer to the corners a little bit at a time.
You can get the most data this way
1. Measure Left, then right, than L+R at current position
2. Move a few inches closer to wall and repeat
Left, then right, then L+R
do this until you get as close to each corner as you can. Current position plus 3 more should tell you enough.
Moving closer to a wall will give you bass boost like an EQ but for free.
The trick is to get the right boost without getting huge peaks.
EDIT
You may want to move you couch(ear position) 5.5feet away from the wall first. this should even out the bass and give you a smoother response.
However your room has to ports(openings) so it so you may need to experiment.
1. Move and measure speakers to get more bass boost
2. Move couch around to around 5 feet away from wall and remeasure
- Thread Starter
- #38
Great Thanks for the guidance! I will do the measuring this weekend.
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