Speaker Matches for PrimaLuna Prologue Premium Int Amp

[KPC]

Greetings everyone,

New to the forum and excited to learn from the guild of audiophiles.

I am also new to Hi-Fi and after finally handling adult responsibilities, here I am in my Mid-40's getting to do fun stuff. Here is my current setup:

Cambridge CXN100 Streamer
Pro-Ject 2Xperience SB SE Turntable (Stage is pending and also in research)
PrimaLuna Prologue Premium Integrated Amp (Upgraded from a Yamaha A-S501)
Q Acoustics 3050 Speakers

I am in the process of taking over an upstairs room in my home (300 Square-ish feet). I feel that with time, I will look to upgrade my speakers to help extract more definition in the mid-range. No genre or era of music for me is off limits and I know certain favorites will not be as optimized as others. Smooth Jazz, Salsa, and 80's 90's era music are where I usually reside.

So hit me with speaker recommendations with a 5K cap on cost.

Outside of doing homework on DB, Ohms, what other considerations mold your thoughts on Speaker research?

Thanks again for your patience and input!

 

[staticV3]

Hi @KPC! Welcome to ASR.

5K is a lot of money and gives you access to many excellent speakers.

I would shortlist:

-Ascilab C8T
-Ascend Acoustics ELX Tower
-Philharmonic Audio BMR Tower
-KEF R7 Meta
-MoFi Sourcepoint 888

These five are rigorously following the science of transparent and faithful audio reproduction which makes them a cut above speakers from the likes of Sonus Faber, Dali, Triangle, Q Acoustics, Monitor Audio, Klipsch and co.

You'd be well served with either one of them.

Also, a UMIK-1 and a way to apply PEQ for room correction should be included in any investment of that magnitude, as you're just not getting the full potential when leaving the room uncorrected.

 

[mhardy6647]

@KPC This thing, right?
https://www.primaluna-usa.com/prologue-premium-power-amplifier
EDIT: Whoops, looks like it's this:

ProLogue Premium Integrated — PrimaLuna USA

www.primaluna-usa.com

Are you using one as a stereo amplifier or two as "monoblocks"?
For the former: something in the range of 35 watts per channel (at least with push-pull EL34 outputs), and - again, if stereo - the option of 16 ohm taps on the output transformers. EDIT: Nope, only 4 and 8 ohm taps, sorry!

You'll want something with a reasonably "flat" impedance curve, and ideally "high" nominal impedance (relative to modern practice); 8 ohm, and 16 ohm if feasible. "for best results."

You'll also want something with fairly high sensitivity, especially if (EDIT) any of your favorite music is quite dynamic or complex music (e.g., symphonic), and even more so if you like it loud.
EDIT: This is a transformer coupled amplifier with fairly high output impedance; not the usual ASR fare for amplification. I suspect any of @staticV3's suggestions will sound good to pretty good driven by that amplifier, but I suspect that any of those combinations will leave you wanting more oompf in your sound... and you'll start sinking money in a bevy of output tubes and other ephemera chasing it.

If feasible, I'd encourage you to consider loudspeakers rated for at least 90 dB SPL per watt (2.83 V AC into 8 ohm) at 1 meter sensitivity.

Personally I'd go vintage Altec (e.g., Nineteen, Santiago, or Valencia)... but... I would.
Klipsch "Heritage" series are a time-honored tradition. They'll work pretty well, but there's an aggressiveness to the Klipsch sound that's not for everyone (me, e.g. ... and I lived with a pair of Cornwalls for years).
JBL (especially vintage) is a realistic option. Again, there's an aggressiveness to the treble of the classic JBLs that doesn't work too well for me, but many folk love 'em,

There are modern options (including the current Klipsch Heritage models, which are certainly better than those of past eras). JBL's kind of moved away from "tube friendly" loudspeakers, but they probably still have some options.

Many of the current "tube audiophile"-favored loudspeaker brands are, at best, controversial -- at worst, they're lousy and very overpriced.

 

[KPC]

I would shortlist:

-Ascilab C8T
-Ascend Acoustics ELX Tower
-Philharmonic Audio BMR Tower
-KEF R7 Meta
-MoFi Sourcepoint 888



Also, a UMIK-1 and a way to apply PEQ for room correction should be included in any investment of that magnitude, as you're just not getting the full potential when leaving the room uncorrected.

No doubt! Id prefer to spend $2,500 or less, but if the right speaker is just above, I'm willing to wait and save the funds to minimize regret and eventual cost over the time. Over 5K and id be waiting till 2028.. or longer.. lol.

Four of the five brands you cited would be new to me, so this is very insightful. The UMIK-1 and PEQ topics will also be a fun deep-dive. Thanks for sharing your thoughts!!

 

[mhardy6647]

Now... it's not the same amplifier, but it's cut from similar cloth.
@amirm did review an earlier Prima Luna power amp a while back.

PrimaLuna Dialogue Seven Tube Amp Review

This is a review, listening test and detailed measurements of the PriamLUna Dialogue Seven tube monoblock power amplifier. It is on kind loan from a member and cost $2,747 when it came out in late 2000s. Fit and finish seems excellent. My back unfortunately is not so situated and burdened...

www.audiosciencereview.com

@KPC I'd suggest that you take a look at its 4 ohm vs. 8 ohm performance. This is pretty typical for the behavior of a dual-tapped output transformer and illustrates why you should look for nominal 8 ohm loudspeakers if at all possible.

 

[mhardy6647]

So... here's the thing about harmonic distortion. Push-pull power amplifier topology cancels out the so-called "euphonic"* even-ordered harmonic components of an input signal. The harmonic distortion spectrum of a vacuum-tube push-pull power amplifier will typically (albeit not absolutely) be dominated by lower, odd-order harmonic distortion components (e.g., 3rd and 5th harmonics). Those could make a signal sound bad.

_________________
* Even order harmonic distortion products are intrinsically "euphonic" (good-sounding) in that, e.g., the second harmonic of a pure (sinusoidal, single frequency) fundamental tone is exactly one octave above the fundamental. Whether 2nd order HD added to an actual "music" signal (waveform) sounds better in any way, shape, or form to any particular individual is less clear-cut, though.

 

[KPC]

Now... it's not the same amplifier, but it's cut from similar cloth.
@amirm did review an earlier Prima Luna power amp a while back.

PrimaLuna Dialogue Seven Tube Amp Review

This is a review, listening test and detailed measurements of the PriamLUna Dialogue Seven tube monoblock power amplifier. It is on kind loan from a member and cost $2,747 when it came out in late 2000s. Fit and finish seems excellent. My back unfortunately is not so situated and burdened...

www.audiosciencereview.com

@KPC I'd suggest that you take a look at its 4 ohm vs. 8 ohm performance. This is pretty typical for the behavior of a dual-tapped output transformer and illustrates why you should look for nominal 8 ohm loudspeakers if at all possible.

Thanks for all of the shares! There is a ton I need to learn so I will be doubling back to your post a few times.

I have been using AI to sort of "pre-understand" some things, and the 8 ohm output was the one consistent feedback I saw across the board. Once I get my setup to the upstairs room from the living room im curious to establish that baseline and then dig deeper (BTW I have a friend that owns a pair of the Altec Valencia's, so I need to see about trying those out )

 

[DVDdoug]

New to the forum and excited to learn from the guild of audiophiles.

I am also new to Hi-Fi

You found one of the few rational-scientific resources! Most "audiophiles" are nuts and most of what you read is nonsense!

It's probably worthwhile going to an audio/video store just to get educated about what different speakers can sound like. Speakers (or headphones) are "everything."

And you might want to listen to some surround-sound up-mixing while you're at it. It's not for everybody and up-mixing is "hi-fi" heresy" since I'm not listening accurately as-intended but I like some delayed reverb from the rear to simulate the sound of a larger space. Plus, I have a shelf-full of concert DVDs (and a couple of Blu-Rays) with true surround. I "only" have 5.1 channels but adding surround and a couple of subwoofers are the biggest upgrades I ever made.

Speaker sound is mostly about frequency response, starting with on-axis response. You can do a lot to tweak frequency response with EQ and tone controls, except if the bass is weak it's usually hard to boost/correct without getting distortion. Unfortunately, most manufactures don't publish usable-reliable specs but you can trust the measurements here.

Speaker measurement is complicated when you consider on-axis and off-axis frequency response, but when you have about an hour you might want to watch this video: Understanding Speaker Measurements

Beyond speaker choice (and enough amplifier power to drive them as loud as you want) you can tweak the sound with EQ/tone controls and you do acoustic treatment. It's best to measure the room before (and after) playing around with acoustic treatment. ("Diagnosis before treatment".)

I'm not a big headphone guy and headphone listening is a "different experience" compared to speakers in a room, but with headphones there is almost no correlation between price and sound quality and you can get a pair of "high end" headphones for a couple hundred dollars (or a lousy pair for a thousand dollars).

PrimaLuna Prologue Premium Integrated Amp (Upgraded from a Yamaha A-S501)

From what mhardy6647 says, that was likely a downgrade. MOST electronics are better than human hearing unless you overdrive an amplifier (or something) into clipping/distortion. It's harder and more expensive to make a good tube amp and sometimes the higher output impedance causes it to "interact" with the speaker so the amplifier performs differently with different speakers. That doesn't happen with a good amp (tube or solid state).

Pro-Ject 2Xperience SB SE Turntable (Stage is pending and also in research)

A lot of people enjoy vinyl, and even the sound of vinyl, but it's technically inferior to digital (worse noise, distortion, and frequency response). You can always hear noise between tracks and during quiet parts, and sometimes there are nasty clicks and pops. I grew up with vinyl and the "snap", "crackle", and "pop" always annoyed me more than it seemed to bother most people. I could "live with" the constant lower-level noise, but now that we have digital I don't have to! Not all records have audible distortion, and although frequency response is "variable" it can be tweaked with tone controls/EQ. So, NOISE is the big issue. The phono preamp can also sometimes generate audible noise, but usually noise from the record dominates. ...High-gain phono preamps and microphone preamps can be exceptions to what I said about most electronics being better than human hearing.

Also see Audiophoolery which discusses the actual characteristics of "sound quality" and it should help you to ignore all of that audiophile nonsense terminology that you might read elsewhere. And Controlled Audio Blind Listening Tests (video) will help you to be skeptical of regular non-blind listening tests/reviews that aren't backed-up with measurements.

 

[KPC]

You found one of the few rational-scientific resources! Most "audiophiles" are nuts and most of what you read is nonsense!

It's probably worthwhile going to an audio/video store just to get educated about what different speakers can sound like. Speakers (or headphones) are "everything."

And you might want to listen to some surround-sound up-mixing while you're at it. It's not for everybody and up-mixing is "hi-fi" heresy" since I'm not listening accurately as-intended but I like some delayed reverb from the rear to simulate the sound of a larger space. Plus, I have a shelf-full of concert DVDs (and a couple of Blu-Rays) with true surround. I "only" have 5.1 channels but adding surround and a couple of subwoofers are the biggest upgrades I ever made.

Speaker sound is mostly about frequency response, starting with on-axis response. You can do a lot to tweak frequency response with EQ and tone controls, except if the bass is weak it's usually hard to boost/correct without getting distortion. Unfortunately, most manufactures don't publish usable-reliable specs but you can trust the measurements here.

Speaker measurement is complicated when you consider on-axis and off-axis frequency response, but when you have about an hour you might want to watch this video: Understanding Speaker Measurements

Beyond speaker choice (and enough amplifier power to drive them as loud as you want) you can tweak the sound with EQ/tone controls and you do acoustic treatment. It's best to measure the room before (and after) playing around with acoustic treatment. ("Diagnosis before treatment".)

I'm not a big headphone guy and headphone listening is a "different experience" compared to speakers in a room, but with headphones there is almost no correlation between price and sound quality and you can get a pair of "high end" headphones for a couple hundred dollars (or a lousy pair for a thousand dollars).


From what mhardy6647 says, that was likely a downgrade. MOST electronics are better than human hearing unless you overdrive an amplifier (or something) into clipping/distortion. It's harder and more expensive to make a good tube amp and sometimes the higher output impedance causes it to "interact" with the speaker so the amplifier performs differently with different speakers. That doesn't happen with a good amp (tube or solid state).


A lot of people enjoy vinyl, and even the sound of vinyl, but it's technically inferior to digital (worse noise, distortion, and frequency response). You can always hear noise between tracks and during quiet parts, and sometimes there are nasty clicks and pops. I grew up with vinyl and the "snap", "crackle", and "pop" always annoyed me more than it seemed to bother most people. I could "live with" the constant lower-level noise, but now that we have digital I don't have to! Not all records have audible distortion, and although frequency response is "variable" it can be tweaked with tone controls/EQ. So, NOISE is the big issue. The phono preamp can also sometimes generate audible noise, but usually noise from the record dominates. ...High-gain phono preamps and microphone preamps can be exceptions to what I said about most electronics being better than human hearing.

Also see Audiophoolery which discusses the actual characteristics of "sound quality" and it should help you to ignore all of that audiophile nonsense terminology that you might read elsewhere. And Controlled Audio Blind Listening Tests (video) will help you to be skeptical of regular non-blind listening tests/reviews that aren't backed-up with measurements.

Thanks!! And yes, this does seem to be a reasonable place to gather information lol!!! First time I have signed up for a forum in half a decade as the material I read resonated.

Its a bit difficult learning all of this at an age where the mind (and hearing!!!) is starting to go off the cliff a little. I do not own much vinyl and the turntable purchase was more to appease friends that enjoy bringing over records to listen to. Once they went into cartridges they lost me

Listening to music on a quality streamer is what pushed me over the edge.... I could get a decent quality of audio and not need to invest too much in physical media!! The big debate amongst my friends is the argument of buying a higher end streamer over a lower priced model and taking the $$$ to invest elsewhere (and there is the argument of DAC's and the output realizing tangible improvements in sound quality -- which I decided to do a blind test and have concluded that it does matter).

Then again maybe its all placebo.. Im here for it all

 

[mhardy6647]

As one of the few (not the only, though ) tubes 'n' horns people regularly reading & posting at this site , I'm not sure I'd call it a downgrade (although I do know what @DVDdoug is getting at -- and he's not incorrect), but the Prima Luna will definitely bring some flavor with it and some of its characteristics will make choice of loudspeakers truly amenable to very good performance with this amplifier more limited and thus more challenging.

 

[mhardy6647]

Oh, come to think of it, I should probably acknowledge/disclose that I am something of a Yamaha fanboi, too.

 

[DVDdoug]

The big debate amongst my friends is the argument of buying a higher end streamer over a lower priced model and taking the $$$ to invest elsewhere (and there is the argument of DAC's and the output realizing tangible improvements in sound quality.

"Bits are bits" and if they get corrupted you usually get bad clicks & pops, dropouts, or no sound at all. You won't get a change in bass or "detail" or "soundstage" or anything subtle. This isn't a perfect analogy but ONE bit flipped from a one to a zero (or vice-versa) in your bank account is equally likely to cause a 1-cent error or a billion-dollar error!

Typically, you'd choose a streamer for it's features, not for "sound".

DACs can potentially sound different but usually they don't. If there is a difference it's usually noise (hum, hiss, or whine in the background). If you've got audible noise, there's no need for blind listening. There is always measurable noise from anything analog, including the analog output of a DAC.

-- which I decided to do a blind test and have concluded that it does matter).

Controlled tests have to be level-matched and the results need to be statistically valid and repeatable. What is a blind ABX test?

BTW I have a friend that owns a pair of the Altec Valencia's,

I haven't heard those but in the 1970s I used to lust for a pair of Altec A7's. They don't make 'em like that anymore! Good modern speakers probably "measure better" but I'll bet the Valencia is efficient (loud with very little wattage) and it probably sounds "big".

 

[MarkS]

You'll want something with a reasonably "flat" impedance curve, and ideally "high" nominal impedance (relative to modern practice); 8 ohm, "for best results."

If feasible, I'd encourage you to consider loudspeakers rated for at least 90 dB SPL per watt (2.83 V AC into 8 ohm) at 1 meter sensitivity.

This is all spot on, and reveals something the OP may not want to hear: that PrimaLuna amp is a barrier to the best possible sound, not a helper.

OP, if you want the best possible sound for your money, step one is to sell the PrimaLuna and get some modern solid-state electronics that don't have these limitations. Those can be had at modest cost, and you will make money on the switch. That will open up the range of speakers you can consider, and also the ability to do room correction, which greatly improves any system, no matter how good the speakers and electronics are that comprise it.

But if you're totally in love with the PrimaLuna and won't consider replacing it, then do look for high sensitivity, high impedance speakers for the best possible results.

 

[DanielT]

Heco Aurora 1000.

Good sensitivity: I measured the sensitivity to be 90.9dB for 2.83v at 1 meter,..

Seems to be a fairly easy load:

...these are four-ohm speakers, they are not a tough electrical load otherwise. The impedance minima occur at 4 ohms around 100Hz but not with a very steep phase angle.

But more tube savvy people can comment on that. Is Heco Aurora 1000 a good match for the PrimaLuna Prologue Premium in terms of impedance?

Price: MSRP: $799/each

Measures well.

HECO Aurora 1000 Floorstanding Loudspeaker Review

The German made Heco Aurora 1000 floor-standing speakers ($799/ea) were put through the wringer with our in depth measurement testing and yielded surprising results. Are these the speakers to get?

www.audioholics.com

Here's @arancano with a tube amp who likes them:

Wow! OMG! How do you express intense like without being over-dramatic?

I am glad I've lasted to 73 years old. I've blissed listening to music over the last 50 years through live performances and with a large variety of hi-end and hi-end adjacent gear. Although memories can deceive us, my current rig is the culmination of a fabulous journey. Perhaps my hearing has...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Edit:
This was lucky. It is possible to bi-amp the Heco Aurora 1000.

Then @KPC you just let a class D amp take care of the bass in them. That way you avoid the possible impedance challenge at 100 Hz.

 

[DSJR]

Any speaker able to get the best out of Prima Luna amplifiers (as a breed) ought to have a linear impedance curve over the audio frequency range I'd suggest, as at least the amp won't turn into a graphic equaliser as it tracks the speaker impedance curve if it's like a roller-coaster. Transformer coupled valve amps tend to do this as a genre, but some are better than others in this respect.

 

[LTig]

@KPC: If this is the same amp as measured by Stereophile then yes, a speaker with consistent high impedance and high sensitivity might be the best match. I wouldn't go for sensitivities above 90 dB/1W because the amp is rather noisy and may lead to audible hiss.

In the end though it makes more sense to follow @MarkS's advice and sell the PrimaLuna. This also opens the possibility to buy a preamp and active speakers. With 5k at hand you could get one of the best sounding systems available on the market (Speakers: e.g. Neumann KH150, KH310, Genelec 8331, 8340. 8350, possibly with a matching sub).
EDIT: if you have a digital input (SPDIF) of your streamer free, you could connect a Waxwing phono preamp and use the streamer as preamp.

 

[KPC]

Cant thank all of you enough for the response!! The PrimaLuna purchase was based on hearing a friend's amp on his setup. He does use electrostatic speakers. The sound is magical.

I do get quickly fatigued with his system and im hoping to re-create the detail to a certain point without the fatigue...

The info provided so far will go a long way to helping me re-assess my current baseline and be a little more open-minded to new approaches.

 

[DanielT]

@KPC: If this is the same amp as measured by Stereophile then yes, a speaker with consistent high impedance and high sensitivity might be the best match. I wouldn't go for sensitivities above 90 dB/1W because the amp is rather noisy and may lead to audible hiss.

In the end though it makes more sense to follow @MarkS's advice and sell the PrimaLuna. This also opens the possibility to buy a preamp and active speakers. With 5k at hand you could get one of the best sounding systems available on the market (Speakers: e.g. Neumann KH150, KH310, Genelec 8331, 8340. 8350, possibly with a matching sub).
EDIT: if you have a digital input (SPDIF) of your streamer free, you could connect a Waxwing phono preamp and use the streamer as preamp.

That was the icing on the cake of problems. TS needs fairly sensitive speakers so the Heco I suggested should have been able to fit BUT then they may have too high sensitivity. Hopeless this.

@KPC sell your PrimaLuna. It is no better than a 70 year old tube amp:
Footnote 2: It is relevant to point out that the Leak Point One amplifier achieved similar levels of distortion from a pair of KT66 tubes—70 years ago!

PrimaLuna ProLogue Premium power amplifier Measurements | Stereophile.com

Sidebar 3: Measurements I performed a full set of measurements on the PrimaLuna ProLogue Premium power amplifier, using both my Audio Precision SYS2722 system (see the January 2008 "As We See It") and my vintage Audio Precision System One.

www.stereophile.com

@KPC Tube amps are for DIY enthusiasts who want to keep the tube tradition alive.For those who get satisfaction of service, repair and/or building something themselves:

Spoiler

If you don't belong to that category, skip tube amps. Also, if you want to color the sound(why?), you can do it, even for free, with EQ and / or via distortion plug-in programs.

EQ can in and of itself be needed regardless of the amplifier to fix a nice bass response because the room acoustics can mess it up. I'll leave that aspect aside. There are already countless threads on ASR that address that topic, that challenge.

Good suggestion for speakers LTig. Consider going active @KPC .
It most likely gives the best sound for your money.

I do get quickly fatigued with his system and im hoping to re-create the detail to a certain point without the fatigue...

With some good active speakers, you can listen for a long time without suffering from listening fatigue.

A tip. This active speaker has now emerged as an interesting contender:

Palmer ORBIT 11 Cardioid Coaxial 3-way studio monitor (MSRP 799€/899$)

Well then, this is a splash, this monitor basically throws all the en vogue technologies in a single product and does it at a price that is impressively low for its reported capability. And it looks really nice too. Official description (link): The Palmer ORBIT 11 is an active coaxial 3-way...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Waxx]

Many will push you away from that tube amp because it's a coloured amplifier, with a low damping rate. But it has it's merit (I have an older model, and use it next to clean amp setups). It's not fit for a clean neutral setup, but if that is not the goal, it's a good (and popular) amplifier.

In my opinion it needs speakers that are not bass heavy (it will enchange the bass) and higher sensitve (altough that is not mandatory), not many are made like that. Harbeth speakers work well with this amp, just like the older style Tannoy coax speakers and even the big JBL speakers (43xx series). I use mine with a diy speaker that is fit for it. Stay away from Kiplish (very bright and ragged) or many of those very expensive brands that are hyped on audiophool fora, those are in general not that good. The Tannoy Arden sounds very good with it, just like the Harbeth Monitor 30 and the JBL 4309. Most modern speakers like popular here will sound bass heavy with it.

 

[DanielT]

In my opinion it needs speakers that are not bass heavy (it will enchange the bass) and higher sensitve (altough that is not mandatory), not many are made like that. Harbeth speakers work well with this amp, just like the older style Tannoy coax speakers and even the big JBL speakers (43xx series). I use mine with a diy speaker that is fit for it. Stay away from Kiplish (very bright and ragged) or many of those very expensive brands that are hyped on audiophool fora, those are in general not that good. The Tannoy Arden sounds very good with it, just like the Harbeth Monitor 30 and the JBL 4309. Most modern speakers like popular here will sound bass heavy with it.

If TS wants to keep his tube amp, he has the option to split the signal from his streamer and power up speakers with bi-amp capabilities. Let some class d amp take care of the bass and his tube amp can take care of the rest. Thus, the bass challenge for a tube amp is solved, or nonexistent.
The solution assumes that his streamer has volume control.

It doesn't have to cost much. For example, a Fosi Audio V3 ..Price goes up to $109.99 with the 48 volt supply.
48 volt supply=141 watts into 4 Ohm. That's enough to power up "normal" speakers.

Fosi Audio V3 Amplifier Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Fosi Audio V3 stereo amplifier. It was sent to me by the company and costs US $89.99 with stock 32 volt supply. Price goes up to $109.99 with the 48 volt supply. There is a $10 discount coupon right now. Despite its budget price, the V3...

www.audiosciencereview.com