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Speaker for mixing in 45m2 room

test1223

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If monitors almost touching frontwall gets rid of the dip, you might not need those panels there anymore and can put them at the back (freestanding). that could get rid of some ringin from the first longitunal mode.
but I din't say you should do it like so, I said you have to play around more with positioning. I know it sucks since moving stuff around is a lot of work, but you can find some nice improvements (for free)
You can do this to increase the bass performance, but you will sacrifice the exactness in all other frequency bands. Avoiding early reflections is very important to get good sound. A placement next to a wall is not good.

The current placement of the monitors and panels is good.

As I said multiple times you can't get good enough bass with these small monitors anyway. Therefore applying some bass boost eq in the meantime and live with less headroom. Add a good subwoofer later and you have a very decent set up. All other solutions won't last long.
 
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Lilith

Lilith

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I moved in the same building (up two floors), so I kind of moved into the same room twice. down there I had a big ceiling panel. while I was removing stuff down there I left it for last to meassure it's real impact. it was very limited, and now I am not using it anymore my room is more alive. I also moved most of my material to the back-wall since the first mode is very energetic in my 4m x 3m room. the rest is providing a "reflection free zone" at the front half
I also asked at gearslutz (now gearspace :facepalm: ) awhile ago. They suggested to completely treat the back wall with Rockwool and to mount (I think it was called a closed packed) ceiling cloud. Last time I watched I video of Boris Babicz who also works in a very big room. He only treated massively the region where the speakers are located and left everything else untouched. I think as long I 'm not reaching into the sub bass region < 50 Hz the rear wall is relatively unimportant and that one of the reasons why I want to avoid adding a subwoofer.

He (Andy Stott) for example is only using a pair of 8030

1654804843383.jpeg
 
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Lilith

Lilith

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You can do this to increase the bass performance, but you will sacrifice the exactness in all other frequency bands. Avoiding early reflections is very important to get good sound. A placement next to a wall is not good.

The current placement of the monitors and panels is good.

As I said multiple times you can't get good enough bass with these small monitors anyway. Therefore applying some bass boost eq in the meantime and live with less headroom. Add a good subwoofer later and you have a very decent set up. All other solutions won't last long.
That was my impression. Without the panels it sounded more washed out, but I couldn't see a difference in the measurements or I was looking at the wrong parameters.
Also most people say treating the front wall is unnecessary.
 

czt

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Just brainstorming.... What sub would you recommend for the KH120 and how can I manage to leave it off when it's not needed? Heard good things about the Presonus T10.
The T10 has sub bypass, but for leaving it without power you will need external bass management. When you have it, don't hesitate to turn the subwoofer facing left or right (in front wall proximity) during integration.
 

test1223

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That was my impression. Without the panels it sounded more washed out, but I couldn't see a difference in the measurements or I was looking at the wrong parameters.
Also most people say treating the front wall is unnecessary.
It is not easy to see it in the measurements. The impulse response shows the early reflections. But sometimes even there it is not easy to see.

The negative influence of early reflections is well documented and the effect is exactly what you described.

There are many different approaches to get good room acoustic. You placed the panels very well. But there are pros and cons for each approach.

He (Andy Stott) for example is only using a pair of 8030
Yes some musicians are very strange. I love some of his music and you need very deep bass to hear everything in his music. He once said he sits in a bass boosted spot in his room but I doubt that he can hear the very deep subbass with this set up.

I think as long I 'm not reaching into the sub bass region < 50 Hz the rear wall is relatively unimportant and that one of the reasons why I want to avoid adding a subwoofer.
The assumption is not correct the speaker radiates a lot of sound to the back wall. Especially with speakers with narrow beam.

I also asked at gearslutz (now gearspace :facepalm: ) awhile ago. They suggested to completely treat the back wall with Rockwool and to mount (I think it was called a closed packed) ceiling cloud. Last time I watched I video of Boris Babicz who also works in a very big room. He only treated massively the region where the speakers are located and left everything else untouched.
This can also be a very good option it depends on the room and what is most important. With less absorption you get more envelopement, which most inexperienced listeners never heard a stereo set up which is capable of such things. It is most of the time a tradeoff between exactness and envelopment...

The good home cinema subwoofers provide the best price performance ratio. A crossover which also provides a high pass to the neumann is the way to go. Maybe you can fiddle such a crossover with a soundcard and a linux software hack around, since you are familiar with such things.
 
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Lilith

Lilith

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It is not easy to see it in the measurements. The impulse response shows the early reflections. But sometimes even there it is not easy to see.

The negative influence of early reflections is well documented and the effect is exactly what you described.

There are many different approaches to get good room acoustic. You placed the panels very well. But there are pros and cons for each approach.


Yes some musicians are very strange. I love some of his music and you need very deep bass to hear everything in his music. He once said he sits in a bass boosted spot in his room but I doubt that he can hear the very deep subbass with this set up.


The assumption is not correct the speaker radiates a lot of sound to the back wall. Especially with speakers with narrow beam.


This can also be a very good option it depends on the room and what is most important. With less absorption you get more envelopement, which most inexperienced listeners never heard a stereo set up which is capable of such things. It is most of the time a tradeoff between exactness and envelopment...

The good home cinema subwoofers provide the best price performance ratio. A crossover which also provides a high pass to the neumann is the way to go. Maybe you can fiddle such a crossover with a soundcard and a linux software hack around, since you are familiar with such things.

I even have ab acoustic curtain behind my listening position to separate the big lively room a bit from me. Do you think this can help. Again here I have the impression that it sounds more defined with the curtain closed. But the reflexions should arrive at my ear so late that it shouild not matter.
 

test1223

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I even have ab acoustic curtain behind my listening position to separate the big lively room a bit from me. Do you think this can help. Again here I have the impression that it sounds more defined with the curtain closed. But the reflexions should arrive at my ear so late that it shouild not matter.
You get less and less envelopment with more absorption. Since you won't get much envelopment with nearly any near field monitor in the near field at all it seems a good trade to close the curtain.

A very good set up (especially for listening pleasure) should provide much more envelopement. But it is very hard to achieve good exactness and envelopment. For production and mixing especially with artificial sounds exactness is much more important.
 
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Lilith

Lilith

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You get less and less envelopment with more absorption. Since you won't get much envelopment with nearly any near field monitor in the near field at all it seems a good trade to close the curtain.

A very good set up (especially for listening pleasure) should provide much more envelopement. But it is very hard to achieve good exactness and envelopment. For production and mixing especially with artificial sounds exactness is much more important.
This expression I had to look up


Was new to me.
 
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Lilith

Lilith

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You get less and less envelopment with more absorption. Since you won't get much envelopment with nearly any near field monitor in the near field at all it seems a good trade to close the curtain.

A very good set up (especially for listening pleasure) should provide much more envelopement. But it is very hard to achieve good exactness and envelopment. For production and mixing especially with artificial sounds exactness is much more important.

That's also the reason why I like them to be close to me (1.3m) When I put them to the wall they are around 1.6m or further from me.
 

test1223

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That's also the reason why I like them to be close to me (1.3m) When I put them to the wall they are around 1.6m or further from me.
Yes about 1m is a good listening distance for the KH120 and 1.6m is to far away.
This expression I had to look up


Was new to me.
The explanation from sweetwater to tie envelopment to surround set ups is not that accurate. With 5.1 or 7.1 you don't necessarily get envelopment it is "flat" not necessarily all around you. Envelopement is achieved with a diffuse sound field or some psychoacoustic tricks.

This thread might be of interest for you https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...nt-wide-vs-narrow-directivity-and-more.15171/
 

fluid

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A subwoofer or two is almost always helpful with small monitors if deep bass and anything other than low level is desired. There is then the possibility of placing the main monitors where they perform best and the subwoofer where it/they perform best.

If there is no subwoofer a compromise has to be struck. Bass is a bit like overall frequency response that if it is wrong nothing else matters as much. If the whole bass is missing that is less problematic than if random parts of it are missing. You can easily listen to a table radio and not be horrified by the sound as it has no bass. But something that puts a one note boomy bass over everything is much more objectionable.

Headphones are also a valid companion to monitors that do not have full range capability to make sure that nothing untoward has occurred in the sub bass during a mix that couldn't be heard through your monitors.

Even though your room is not completely rectangular it is rectangular enough that the REW simulation should give good insight into speaker positioning and boundary interference. If you can find a position that reduces destructive interference and works practically then it is likely to be closer than moving randomly which is not going to be easy for you to do. Peaks are not much of problem as they can be EQ'd but big dips need to be avoided.

Your original position and treatment probably was not too far away from the best compromise you can get. I would imagine there is middle ground between no treatment and close wall placement and full treatment thickness forcing the speaker further away than optimal. 4 to 6" of absorbent is enough to be broadband enough and kill most early reflections in it's path.

As the room is quite long you might want to consider moving the speakers and desk into the middle away from the wall behind them. If you can get them to 2m from the wall the reflections will then be much less detrimental but you will lose some boundary reinforcement too.

For understanding envelopment and many other acoustic concepts read the work of David Griesinger formerly of Lexicon. His website has most of his papers and powerpoints available.

http://www.davidgriesinger.com/laaes2.pdf

For seeing the level of early reflections an ETC of the impulse in REW is helpful.
 

audio2920

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For understanding envelopment and many other acoustic concepts read the work of David Griesinger formerly of Lexicon. His website has most of his papers and powerpoints available.

http://www.davidgriesinger.com/laaes2.pdf
Interesting, I thought I'd read a fair bit of his stuff (and used "his" lex 480 /960 for years) but I hadn't seen that about low frequency spatial cues vs room size. [SIDE NOTE: Certainly seems like an argument for running subs individually per speaker rather than grouping/mono'ing them and trying to get the FR plot looking perfect. For a breif while I did the latter because the Internet said so, but now I'm generally back to the former because I prefer the spatial properties.]

What I was gonna say about the room sim was, obviously you've got measured data now, so if you put those dimensions and speaker positions in to the sim you can see if it tallies up *before* you start moving things. If it does, then great because @fluid is right; the sim is definitely useful.

I'm afraid more sceptical that it'll work for your room, due to the shape. I had a room weirdly similar to yours (one slightly angled wall and a bit of an "L" opposite) and the room sim was utterly useless for me. But you never know! Fingers crossed!
 

fluid

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[SIDE NOTE: Certainly seems like an argument for running subs individually per speaker rather than grouping/mono'ing them and trying to get the FR plot looking perfect. For a breif while I did the latter because the Internet said so, but now I'm generally back to the former because I prefer the spatial properties.]
Greisinger is probably the only person with any real academic clout that is not on the mono bass bus

http://www.davidgriesinger.com/asa05.pdf
 

audio2920

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Thanks @fluid, while being careful of confirmation bias, I'll read that one tonight! I have no academic background in acoustics, but my ears tell me that I personally don't buy in to "mono" bass, no matter how much that makes me a minority.

While not academic, I do have many years of mixing under my belt, particularly with surround mixes of live performance. Even in stereo and 5.1 I wasn't always in to "mono the bass" except where compatibility became an issue, but when Atmos came along in the cinema with bass management of the surround information (in stereo at the back of the room) I was like "this is utterly night and day, how can anyone tell me there's no spatial info at LF??" Just switching the LF information between mono (diverged or not) and surround and it's like BOOM, I'm there in a venue. So ultimately, I have to trust my ears. Feels like the mono/stereo bass argument is as old as the Earth :)

I don't know if there's much research on this, or if it's related, but I casually wonder if like microphones, people's ears have quite substantial variation in whether they're biased to being velocity or pressure sensitive (in my simple brain it would depend on how open the rear of the ear drum is to the atmosphere..? Or rather, what the pressure does in different people's heads as it passes the ear drum and skull) and whether that has any bearing on perception.

Anyway... sorry for going wayyy off topic everyone...!!
 
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