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Speaker designer Danny Richie (GR-Research) directly attacks ASR

Jim Matthews

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Google says: "kelly lebrock weird science " Never watched the whole movie so didn't remember her.
There was a sequel, to address all the unanswered questions from the original. It's a cinematic tour de force.

I believe Quentin Tarantino lists it as one of his prime influences.
 

77SunsetStrip

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Hey folks, I would just like to chime in here about the ensuing war as I have followed it on Danny's YT channel from the beginning and have made several posts directed to Danny, although I usually get no response and few likes as I tend to be really verbose and nobody seems to be willing to spend the time to read and think about the science or lack thereof of this subject. Coming off a 50-year career in A/V, RF/RADAR, computer systems/networks data, audio, and video performance engineering, and objective/subjective testing, and also being an avid audio engineering/audiophile, I am very interested in the subject of cabling, EMI/RFI, objective/subjective differences and correlations, among other issues.

So I have copied the last couple of posts to Danny's video that is being discussed here to a file that I attached below so that this post doesn't get ridiculously lengthy. I address the fact that Danny is not doing real science and why, and Amir also has shortcomings in terms of real science, although Amir gets a lot closer to doing real science. I welcome any feedback on these postings and look forward to discussing this issue further.

Stu Markley

Stu, you make good points in the attachment. Neither Danny or Amir demonstrated a reasonable level of engineering rigor that would lead to technical certainty. Both demonstrations were simplified and only scratched the surface. Both demonstrated that un-shielded wire will act as an antenna. That is an undeniable fact. Our modern environment is full of EMI and RFI noise sources. Do we want our audio systems polluted with the noise all around us? Don't think so.

As you correctly pointed out, our electronic boxes are designed with some level of filtering to suppress EMI/RFI noise. The majority of filtering is concentrated at the AC power input. Internal circuitry of an amplifier, for example, by design ignores frequencies outside a pass band. So, do we have no concerns?

We are not going to hear the local FM station through our speakers because zip cord speaker wire acted as an antenna. Distortion in an amplifier due to EMI/RFI picked up by speaker wire is possible, but still unlikely audible. Maybe measurable? Real question for each individual is do you care if there is no audible effect?

NO, there is no blanket endorsement of expensive speaker, power, or interconnect cables implied. It is a fact most of us are surrounded by electronic devices emitting intentional signals and unwanted noise. Reasonable measures to manage noise pollution do not have to be expensive, if an individual just wants some peace of mind. If another wants to spend big bucks on cables because they have high dollar audio equipment, they probably will.
 

amirm

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Stu, you make good points in the attachment. Neither Danny or Amir demonstrated a reasonable level of engineering rigor that would lead to technical certainty. Both demonstrations were simplified and only scratched the surface. Both demonstrated that un-shielded wire will act as an antenna. That is an undeniable fact. Our modern environment is full of EMI and RFI noise sources. Do we want our audio systems polluted with the noise all around us? Don't think so.
They are not polluted. Either by design or on purpose there are tons of filters in your gear to stop responding to higher frequencies. It costs very little to filter out incoming RF at higher frequencies.
 
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Bruce Morgen

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Real question for each individual is do you care if there is no audible effect?

That's the real question when it comes to what the significant characteristics of audio gear actually are. Are the measurable differences between a Benchmark AHB2 and a Purifi Eigentakt-based power amp audible? How about the similarly measurable differences between the latest SOTA DAC and a much less expensive alternative that is nonetheless more than adequate given the limitations of the source material and of human hearing? I like the fact that Amir simply presents the data and leaves the purchasing decisions up to us, whereas a(n IMO) de facto cult leader like Danny has purported -- and no doubt profitable -- remedies on offer, regardless of whether or not there is an audible deficiency to remedy.
 

77SunsetStrip

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That's the real question when it comes to what the significant characteristics of audio gear actually are. Are the measurable differences between a Benchmark AHB2 and a Purifi Eigentakt-based power amp audible? How about the similarly measurable differences between the latest SOTA DAC and a much less expensive alternative that is nonetheless more than adequate given the limitations of the source material and of human hearing? I like the fact that Amir simply presents the data and leaves the purchasing decisions up to us, whereas a(n IMO) de facto cult leader like Danny has purported -- and no doubt profitable -- remedies on offer, regardless of whether or not there is an audible deficiency to remedy.

Ah, there is that word - profit - a negative label attached as a moral judgement. Every audio manufacturer profits from their product. Does each and every audio product live up to marketing language, published specs. (sometimes fudged), or praises from a "reviewer"? Does more cost always guarantee a better audio product of any flavor? Of course not. Absolutely, hearing differences, musical taste, and other factors influence purchasing decisions. There is not a single true path to audio nirvana.

For me, any claims made by Danny, Amir, Erin, Guttenberg, Atkinson, et. al. have to be verified by myself. Been there, done that dozens of times in search of what works for me. Others can do as they wish. Derogatory terms like snake oil, cult, charlatan, audiophool, idiot, etc. are inflammatory bludgeons instead of adult conversation. Flat-earther is not helpful either.

Amir says a $200 DAC measures identical to a $2000 DAC. Interesting information, but I will make the final decision what is right for me. Danny says a capacitor will improve tweeter response. Interesting information, but I will make the final decision what is right for me.
 
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Bruce Morgen

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Ah, there is that word - profit - a negative label attached as a moral judgement. Every audio manufacturer profits from their product.

There's no such judgement here -- business folks have to make a profit and some marketing-driven exaggeration is par for the course. Making up a non-existent -- not only inaudible, but not even measurable -- problem and offering a pricey solution, e.g. "tube connectors," special "audiophile" resistors, elaborately-constructed speaker cables and AC power cords, and even internal hook-up wire that's supposedly going to help a speaker sound better because it has a certain kind of insulation? If that isn't ethically dubious, I don't know what is -- YMMV.
 
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77SunsetStrip

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There's no such judgement here -- business folks have to make a profit and some marketing-driven exaggeration is par for the course. Making up a non-existent -- not only inaudible, but not even measurable -- problem and offering a pricey solution, e.g. "tube connectors," special "audiophile" resistors, elaborately-constructed speaker cables and AC power cords, and even internal hook-up wire that's supposedly going to help a speaker sound better because it has a certain kind of insulation? If that isn't ethically dubious, I don't know what it -- YMMV.

"whereas a(n IMO) de facto cult leader like Danny has purported -- and no doubt profitable". So no judgement or negative implication meant in those words. Cult leader is then a complimentary term one could acceptably use to describe Amir? No judgement on my part, just following suit (IMO).

And then "ethically dubious" elevates opinion to the high moral ground, just IMO.
 
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Bruce Morgen

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"whereas a(n IMO) de facto cult leader like Danny has purported -- and no doubt profitable". So no judgement or negative implication meant in those words. Cult leader is then a complimentary term one could acceptably use to describe Amir? No judgement on my part, just following suit (IMO).

And then "ethically dubious" elevates opinion to the high moral ground, just IMO.

My most recent comment was intended to clarify that I wasn't vilifying the profit motive itself or garden variety marketing ploys, but rather the dubious practice of hawking pricey solutions to non-existent problems and framing that practice as expert advice a la Mr. Richie. Amir's not having a profit motive removes him from "cult leader" contention -- he doesn't even play the "Amazon affiliate" game -- and IMO makes him an order of magnitude more credible than those who stand to line their pockets via their recommendations.
 

77SunsetStrip

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Having no profit motive in no way removes Amir from cult leader contention. Donations are solicited and accepted, correct? Financial benefit to Amir is not zero. Danny and Amir in their own ways cultivate enthusiastic supporters. How about lets agree to avoid the cult label going forward.

Were it not for the frequent ASR attacks directed toward Danny R. going back well over a year, would likely never have paid much attention. Curiosity about the veracity of ASR accusations peaked interest in learning what crimes this scoundrel committed. Have yet to learn of a single person whose pocket he picked or cheated out of hard earned dollars. Don't know of any complaints because a purchase made based on an Amir set of measurements and commentary did not work out. Neither has exclusive claim to being a light of truth, the high moral ground, or basement. Both have something to offer to those willing to listen. Pay your money and learn from your choices.
 
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Bruce Morgen

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Having no profit motive in no way removes Amir from cult leader contention. Donations are solicited and accepted, correct? Financial benefit to Amir is not zero. Danny and Amir in their own ways cultivate enthusiastic supporters. How about lets agree to avoid the cult label going forward.

Were it not for the frequent ASR attacks directed toward Danny R. going back well over a year, would likely never have paid much attention. Curiosity about the veracity of ASR accusations peaked interest in learning what crimes this scoundrel committed. Have yet to learn of a single person whose pocket he picked or cheated out of hard earned dollars. Don't know of any complaints because a purchase made based on an Amir set of measurements and commentary did not work out. Neither has exclusive claim to being a light of truth, the high moral ground, or basement. Both have something to offer to those willing to listen. Pay your money and learn from your choices.

Very few audiophools have the sort of self-reflective honesty to make public complaints against their cult leaders -- and we really don't know if there are folks who felt "cheated out of hard earned dollars," do we? Anyway, as I've expressed to him directly, Danny Richie is, from all indications, an accomplished designer of passive speaker systems -- but when he wanders from that technical wheelhouse, he's either one of "the blind leading the blind" crowd or an unethical businessman. IMO, of course, and YMMV.
 
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77SunsetStrip

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Very few audiophools have the sort of self-reflective honesty to make public complaints against their cult leaders -- and we really don't know if there are folks who felt "cheated out of hard earned dollars," do we? Anyway, as I've expressed to him directly, Danny Richie is, from all indications, an accomplished designer of passive speaker systems -- but when he wanders from that technical wheelhouse, he's either one of "the blind leading the blind" crowd or an unethical businessman. IMO, of course, and YMMV.

I see name calling remains an acceptable means of discourse. No evidence of anyone cheated. No evidence of unhappy GR Research customers. The very same can be said about the lack of buyers remorse based on an Amir review. So guess Amir must be a cult leader also.
 

egellings

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With speakers, unlike, say, amplifiers, you can stick anything (drivers) into a box, and it will likely make sound, however lousy. The amplifier, using similar, um, design methodology, likely goes up in smoke. You can't brag at all.
 

amirm

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No evidence of anyone cheated
Danny has sold thousands of products like tube connectors with no evidence of efficacy. They are cheated then just as if you sold water that you said cures people's cold.

If you mean the person has realized they are cheated, we are not in the business of investigative reporting. Danny did say that a few people have gotten his crossover mods and didn't think the sound was better.

Do you have any evidence that his tweak products like speaker wires do any good? If not you really have nothing to add to this conversation.
 

Cbdb2

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I see name calling remains an acceptable means of discourse. No evidence of anyone cheated. No evidence of unhappy GR Research customers. The very same can be said about the lack of buyers remorse based on an Amir review. So guess Amir must be a cult leader also.

Look at the website. $350 power cable. Proof, right in your face, he's cheating people but you can't see it?
Are you a relative? Why else would you support a con man.
 

amirm

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Having no profit motive in no way removes Amir from cult leader contention. Donations are solicited and accepted, correct? Financial benefit to Amir is not zero. Danny and Amir in their own ways cultivate enthusiastic supporters. How about lets agree to avoid the cult label going forward.
Your doctor also charges you for the visit. That doesn't make him the same as the guy who sells you bracelets with fake demos to make you think you become more powerful by wearing them. See this example:


Make sure you don't fall pray of false equivalence or you are no better than the people try to scam others out of their money....
 

Koeitje

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Your doctor also charges you for the visit. That doesn't make him the same as the guy who sells you bracelets with fake demos to make you think you become more powerful by wearing them. See this example:


Make sure you don't fall pray of false equivalence or you are no better than the people try to scam others out of their money....
Can I ask you something...is buying an APx555, a Klippel NFS and a GRAS45 a good way to make money?
 
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