Speaker choice - Neumann, Dutch & Dutch, KEF

[YSC]

well if you can afford all these the Dutch & Dutch seems to be the end game choice and no need to worry about the Gear Acquisition Syndrome.

Jokes aside I always feel the LR 2.0/2.1 system more natural feeling in all sort of environment unless the audio itself is processed in surround, KH 310 should be able to work as Stereo also without a sub and get quite nice bass, though not to the lowest octaves. While for Genelec looks problem maybe you can actually go to some shops to see it in real? It bugs me before my purchase decision but after it arrived at my home it looks better than in photo, partly due to the dense metallic feel

 

[HooStat]

While for Genelec looks problem maybe you can actually go to some shops to see it in real?

I agree -- it might be something best viewed in person.

 

[Pearljam5000]

I agree -- it might be something best viewed in person.

They look much better in real life.

 

[Lorenzo74]

For the price of a Kii Three and BXT system one could also get a Genelec w371 pair with 8351B and get both vertical and horizontal directivity control with enough to spare for some surrounds and a GLM kit.

I'd love to hear those two systems side by side, and then compare with my 8260+swarm subwoofer array.

if you check product specs the kii plus bxt offer an active directivity control from 50Hz up to 20kHz. Genelec don’t.
best

 

[YSC]

if you check product specs the kii plus bxt offer an active directivity control from 50Hz up to 20kHz. Genelec don’t.
best

but with the measured genelec the ones directivity plot I don't see the active control will do a much better job. personally speaking up to a certain price and performance point the look and feel of the speaker itself weighs more than other marginal improvement in measured sound.

 

[Hephaestus]

if you check product specs the kii plus bxt offer an active directivity control from 50Hz up to 20kHz. Genelec don’t.
best

Genelec 8351B+W371A offers directivity control from ~50Hz as well. It seems you are not familiar with Genelec combo. Lot´s of adjustability as well.
https://www.genelec.com/w371a#section-downloads

 

[Lorenzo74]

Genelec 8351B+W371A offers directivity control from ~50Hz as well. It seems you are not familiar with Genelec combo. Lot´s of adjustability as well.
https://www.genelec.com/w371a#section-downloads

It does in Null steering mode.
but when coupled with sats this cardioid dispersion is limited vs kii three. W371A_operating_manual.pdf (ctfassets.net)
I assume you'll crossover the w371 around 100Hz on slightly above (to not compromise mid bass) to 8351... then 8351 control directivity quite well but not as well as kii three which use the 6.5 inch on the side to cancel the front woofer actively. I'm not criticize Genelec, they made undisputable excellent products.
I would be very interested to see the combined W371+8351 dispersion from 50Hz all the way up to 20kHz and the one of kii three +BXT, if anyone have..
Thanks to the integrated use of DSP and Multiple speakers (back mid and front ) the Kii Three+BXT control hor. off axis response actively up to 800 Hz then baffle and finally DXT waveguide take it over to 20kHz. they just play in another league, challenged only by Beolab 90 (and by D&D in case you place 8c near wall...).
I hope this clarify what I meant, and thank you for the link.
best

 

[Pearljam5000]

A ton of 8C reviews :
https://pura-audio.nl/en/reviews-uk/

From all the comparisons I've read :
Kii Three- more analytical sounding , brighter, instrument separation is better
8C- has a lot more bass, no need for a sub, more "musical" sounding, less bright than Kii Three.
Otherwise they're pretty close.
Obviously i haven't heard either so take it with a grain of salt.
If it was my money I'd go for the Kii Three, i just like the analytical studio monitor sound, but other than that the 8C is probably better in any other way.

 

[Purité Audio]

I have both, I wouldn’t believe everything you read, both have excellent bass, in fact both have more in common than differences, on some programme it is almost impossible to tell them apart.
I find it really encouraging that an increasing number of measurement based designs are being introduced.
Keith

 

[Lorenzo74]

A ton of 8C reviews :
https://pura-audio.nl/en/reviews-uk/

From all the comparisons I've read :
Kii Three- more analytical sounding , brighter, instrument separation is better
8C- has a lot more bass, no need for a sub, more "musical" sounding, less bright than Kii Three.
Otherwise they're pretty close.
Obviously i haven't heard either so take it with a grain of salt.
If it was my money I'd go for the Kii Three, i just like the analytical studio monitor sound, but other than that the 8C is probably better in any other way.

one simple difference is the Kii three is cardioid from 50Hz while D&D is omni up to 100Hz... above that freq more or less similar response (frequency and impulse...).
honestly I'm waiting the Kii Two... with Purifi drivers, and Eigentakt amplifiers... 1-2 years

 

[JustJones]

The Buchardt A700 is an interesting speaker. For pure 2.0, it might actually work better as my spouse might be fine with narrow floor-standers. But the lack of a center channel makes it a 2.0 affair only. Unless there is a magic DSP mode where you can set an A500 on its side and have it function as a center channel. But if we go back to the 2.0 route, it looks like the A700 is dead simple and is full range. I didn't realize it went to 17 hz (but I don't know how loud). It seems like a great product.

You can set an A500 as a center channel using the WiSA hub.

 

[HooStat]

You can set an A500 as a center channel using the WiSA hub.

Thanks -- I don't think I was very clear. I don't think it has a mode where, when you set it on its side to work as a center channel, it somehow changes its dispersion pattern to work as a good center channel does. I would have to use it vertically, but I don't have enough room for that.

As a 2-channel solution, it seems pretty great though.

 

[HooStat]

As cool as it is, the Kii is just too expensive. The D&D 8C is pushing the budget as it is.

 

[judgespear]

Hi everyone,

So far, I've been a passive forum reader. I've just registered as maybe I can answer your questions rgearding the Kii 3 with/without the BXT, the D&D 8C or the Genelec 8361. I own all of them. I started with the D&D, then the 8361, afterwards the Kii 3 and finally the BXTs. The reason why I own all of them? The audiophile bug of course.

 

[HooStat]

I own all of them.

Wow. OK.

What is the bass like between the 8361 and D&D 8C?

 

[judgespear]

Wow. OK.

What is the bass like between the 8361 and D&D 8C?

The bass of the 8361 is more of a "typical" bass-reflex bass. There's at least one octave missing and you hear that. Maybe one of the reasons the 8361 sounds more analytical. The sound "balance" is very different. The 8C on the other hand emphazises the bass. The bass is a bit bloaty or thick in comparison to the other speakers. It plays more easeful (bass headroom) but is difficult to dial-in with absolute precision. In my case, I had a room with a wall on one side and a window on the other side (back-wall)¨and I had to re-arrange the whole room to make the 8C work. The two speakers couldn't sound more different. The 8C lacks resolution, "plankton" and micro dynamics in my opinion. It sounds very smooths, open (mid-range), dynamics and natural. It's brilliant for percussive instruments and drums. The Genelec sounds better resolved and due to the Coax you can sit closer. As one octave is missing in the bass, it can play louder than the Dutch in my opinion. It also images wonderfully (L-R) but not so much in the depth. The cardoid speakers are much better in rendering the depth of the recording, especially the Kiis.

The Kiis are MUCH more transparent and resolving than the Dutch 8C. If you listen to the Kiis alone then the bass is very precise and tight and is the only speaker that really hits 20 Hz of the bunch. I mean in real-life not in spec-sheets. But when you crank it up, you feel (more feel than hear) the distortion as it gets annoying and stressful to listen to. When you add the BXT, there is no practical head-room limit for the home user. The bass is more fleshed out and even more precise. The system becomes much more relaxed and competent. It's like going from a small 4 cylinder engine to a 6.8L V8. Interestingly though, drums still sound more open and dynamic on the D&D 8C. I think this is due to the open (vented) mid-range driver, that doesn't have to work against an air-mass. It sounds more like a freely moving drum head than the other speakers. The Kiis have by far the best DACs and DSP-math built in. The transparency and coherency of the system are exceptional. Especially the timbres of instruments are the most accurate, I've ever heard on any system anywhere. Also the Kiis sound much better controlled (or dryer if you will), excite less room modes and create less wall reflections than the D&D 8C. That's probably where the impression of accuracy is coming from.

Sorry I got a bit off track regarding your question...

 

[JustJones]

Thanks -- I don't think I was very clear. I don't think it has a mode where, when you set it on its side to work as a center channel, it somehow changes its dispersion pattern to work as a good center channel does. I would have to use it vertically, but I don't have enough room for that.

As a 2-channel solution, it seems pretty great though.

Sorry I didn't understand but you can use any WiSA speaker for center not just Buchardt.

 

[Lorenzo74]

The bass of the 8361 is more of a "typical" bass-reflex bass. There's at least one octave missing and you hear that. Maybe one of the reasons the 8361 sounds more analytical. The sound "balance" is very different. The 8C on the other hand emphazises the bass. The bass is a bit bloaty or thick in comparison to the other speakers. It plays more easeful (bass headroom) but is difficult to dial-in with absolute precision. In my case, I had a room with a wall on one side and a window on the other side (back-wall)¨and I had to re-arrange the whole room to make the 8C work. The two speakers couldn't sound more different. The 8C lacks resolution, "plankton" and micro dynamics in my opinion. It sounds very smooths, open (mid-range), dynamics and natural. It's brilliant for percussive instruments and drums. The Genelec sounds better resolved and due to the Coax you can sit closer. As one octave is missing in the bass, it can play louder than the Dutch in my opinion. It also images wonderfully (L-R) but not so much in the depth. The cardoid speakers are much better in rendering the depth of the recording, especially the Kiis.

The Kiis are MUCH more transparent and resolving than the Dutch 8C. If you listen to the Kiis alone then the bass is very precise and tight and is the only speaker that really hits 20 Hz of the bunch. I mean in real-life not in spec-sheets. But when you crank it up, you feel (more feel than hear) the distortion as it gets annoying and stressful to listen to. When you add the BXT, there is no practical head-room limit for the home user. The bass is more fleshed out and even more precise. The system becomes much more relaxed and competent. It's like going from a small 4 cylinder engine to a 6.8L V8. Interestingly though, drums still sound more open and dynamic on the D&D 8C. I think this is due to the open (vented) mid-range driver, that doesn't have to work against an air-mass. It sounds more like a freely moving drum head than the other speakers. The Kiis have by far the best DACs and DSP-math built in. The transparency and coherency of the system are exceptional. Especially the timbres of instruments are the most accurate, I've ever heard on any system anywhere. Also the Kiis sound much better controlled (or dryer if you will), excite less room modes and create less wall reflections than the D&D 8C. That's probably where the impression of accuracy is coming from.

Sorry I got a bit off track regarding your question...

hi @judgespear, glad to be your first "like" it is 50% for the post (it resonate to me but I've listened only to Kii Three) and 50% for the fact you decided to invest in my favorite speakers the German (with Belgian brain) and the Dutch.
Go ahead and post measurements and pictures. we'll love to know more. and hurry up, @hardisj is going to reveal the secret of D&D 8C and hopefully of the Kii three soon after if somewhere @ Kii will be so kind to loan him a pair.
enjoy (one of) the best forum
my Best
Lorenzo

 

[dc655321]

I would guess there's anti-correlation between users of microphones for measurement and users of the descriptor, "plankton"...

 

[onion]

If you listen to the Kiis alone then the bass is very precise and tight and is the only speaker that really hits 20 Hz of the bunch. I mean in real-life not in spec-sheets. But when you crank it up, you feel (more feel than hear) the distortion as it gets annoying and stressful to listen to

I found the Genelecs (8341 with subs) much much less fatiguing and more detailed than the Kiis. The bass is much easier to control with GLM than with the control switches for the Kiis. I've never heard the Kiis with the BXT module - I think the best comparison for that system would be Genelec Ones + W371. I don't know if anyone has tried that?