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Speaker choice - Neumann, Dutch & Dutch, KEF

Pearljam5000

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#43
I thought about that, but the subs are just too expensive for my application. And they don't have a US presence at the moment. For an expensive item that is heavy and hard to ship, it makes it a tough choice. But I will say that I absolutely love the product from what I have seen, and I think it would work well in my application. I hope @sigbergaudio does well.



It is hard to combine aesthetic considerations and to get great sound. I am trying to stay away from extra boxes in the room, and from speaker stands. Basically, I get the area around the TV (under and to the sides and behind the cabinet).

If I am being 100% honest, the cleanest approach is the DD 8C (as @napilopez mentioned). They match the new media cabinet (black oak), I think they will handle low bass better than the Genelec 8351b (could be wrong here), and the tweeter is at the optimal height (the new media cabinet is 24" tall). I just have to get the digital signal into the speakers and I am done. I don't even need an electronics -- my TV will give me the 2.0 out (but I would have to convert either HDMI or Toslink to AES/EBU). But for a little over $12k, they are really expensive, possibly less reliable than Genelec, and may not hold their value in 5 years.

For the same budget, I can get 3x Genelec 8351b or 3x 8341a or 2x 8351b + 1x 8341a, but I need to solve the multichannel signal issue (maybe not terrible) and the speakers will be a little low (probably easy enough to tilt them up slightly), and they will blend a little worse with the decor (subjective). With Genelec, I can always sell them if it doesn't work out because they hold their value really well. That has always been one of my rules of audio purchasing -- buy something you can easily sell if it doesn't work out.

And there is KEF too -- the subs are the hassle there. Everything else is dead simple and clean.
Or you could get 2x 8361A :cool:
 

stevenswall

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#44
I think the Devialets used to have latency problems that made movies difficult. Don't know if that's been solved yet
I'd suggest getting in touch with Devialet for the custom "installer" versions. They have a Phoenix connector on the back and are less complex and don't use the app. Might be better for movies if latency is an issue. I didn't test with movies during the weeks I had them.

Also, I'd have Phantom Reactors right now if it wasn't for the app/connectivity issues with my router and wall wiring (they can do power line Ethernet... Previous owners of the house ungrounded everything when they replaced the outlets.)

They are the only speakers besides the Genelec 8260s that I've heard in my home that don't have any audible defects when testing them nearfield.

Just be wary of what you set them on. They are basically diffractionless with their spherical design, but if you put them near the edge of a counter for example you can get some odd sounds.

If Devialet made a separate quad firing woofer, I'd do surround sound with the custom installer Phantoms and be set.

The Phantoms can do stupidly deep bass compared to most speakers, but in a large room or further away they aren't going to be as impressive turned up all the way playing something like Mountains from Interstellar.

They also adjust based on volume from what inunderstand, kind of like an equal loudness curve: you can still hear the bass when the volume is down, and when you turn it up things become flatter just like our ears hear more evenly at higher volumes.
 

stevenswall

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#45
Or you could get 2x 8361A :cool:
How do those do bass wise? Seems like if avoiding an extra box for subwoofer is an issue, the 8260 would do that better looking at the specs. The 8260 goes lower, but "only" 113dB instead of 118dB.

Used 8260 monitors go for 3k each or so. There were some white ones on Reverb. Looks like they are still there. There's another center one too I think.
 
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HooStat

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Thread Starter #46
Or you could get 2x 8361A :cool:
They won't fit -- just too big but I definitely tried. :)

Why not Reference One's for that matter.
Interesting idea, but for that money, I would rather have active speakers from Genelec.
EDIT -- actually, the Reference 1's go lower than I thought. Maybe something to consider after all.
 

richard12511

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#47
If I am being 100% honest, the cleanest approach is the DD 8C (as @napilopez mentioned). They match the new media cabinet (black oak), I think they will handle low bass better than the Genelec 8351b (could be wrong here), and the tweeter is at the optimal height .
The D&D definitely handles low bass better than the 8351b. Had a chance to hear the D&D a few weeks ago before deciding to purchase the 8351b. The bass is by far the biggest difference between the two. I've tried running my 8351b a few times as full range speakers and it pales in comparison to what I heard from the 8C. A lot of that could be room differences, but my subwoofers don't seem to have a problem with my room. Running my 8351bs full range, I start getting the red warning lights well before I'm at a level I'm satisfied with. I'm someone who loves to feel the bass pressurize and rattle my body. The 8351b start giving up right around the point where I can just start to feel it. I'm guessing this is the same problem Amir had with the 8341, since he too was running full range. With subwoofers, though, I've yet to see the red lights. Listening distance is ~3.5m.
 
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#48
My dream system is KEF REFERENCE 1 + dual subs + mini dsp :eek: there is no speakers no matter what it cost that can compete with 2 very nice subs ( house size speaker doesn't count ).
 
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#49
The room is actually not awful. The wall to the left of the picture is about 15' away. To the other side it is completely open through the kitchen -- practically speaking there is no reflection from that side. The ceiling is sloped up at 45" (vaulted ceiling). The main problem is that we sit against the back wall, but I can't fix that. There is a picture (canvas, no glass) behind us.

But electrostatics won't work in any event for a myriad of reasons. I appreciate the suggestion though.
Seems pretty bad to me... especially with the lack of control for reflections. Have you compared to dedicated room with tuned acoustics (not a dealer showroom)?
 
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Pearljam5000

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#50
The D&D definitely handles low bass better than the 8351b. Had a chance to hear the D&D a few weeks ago before deciding to purchase the 8351b. The bass is by far the biggest difference between the two. I've tried running my 8351b a few times as full range speakers and it pales in comparison to what I heard from the 8C. A lot of that could be room differences, but my subwoofers don't seem to have a problem with my room. Running my 8351bs full range, I start getting the red warning lights well before I'm at a level I'm satisfied with. I'm someone who loves to feel the bass pressurize and rattle my body. The 8351b start giving up right around the point where I can just start to feel it. I'm guessing this is the same problem Amir had with the 8341, since he too was running full range. With subwoofers, though, I've yet to see the red lights. Listening distance is ~3.5m.
They're designed for nearfield use, 8361A or S360 or 1237A are better for that listening distance.
Other than the bass the 8C and 8351B sounded the same?
 

richard12511

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#51
They're designed for nearfield use, 8361A or S360 or 1237A are better for that listening distance.
That's probably true without a subwoofer, but for my situation, I'd rather have the 8351b. It seems to measure better, and the subs easily drive the bass to like 7Hz at any level I want :D. I did consider the 8361, but I figured the smoother measurements would be appreciated more often than the extra output would, which so far has been true(yet to see the red lights with a crossover in place).

Other than the bass the 8C and 8351B sounded the same?
I wouldn't say they sounded the same, but they did sound very similar. 8351b were maybe a little brighter(or 8C was darker, however you want to view it)?. I'm a fairly poor listener, though, so don't take my word for that. I envy people who can say stuff like "200-300Hz is slightly recessed". I'm nowhere near that good. If @hardisj 's upcoming measurements show the 8C to be the brighter speaker, I'd trust that more than I'd trust my ears.

I did think the 8351 imaged/soundstaged a little better(point source thing?), although the 8C was unbelievably good there, too. Imaging difference was much smaller than the bass difference. Main reason I went for the Genelec was for multichannel placement restrictions/freedom. Cost was also a big factor, knowing that the bass would be handled by subs anyway.
 

Pearljam5000

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#52
That's probably true without a subwoofer, but for my situation, I'd rather have the 8351b. It seems to measure better, and the subs easily drive the bass to like 7Hz at any level I want :D. I did consider the 8361, but I figured the smoother measurements would be appreciated more often than the extra output would, which so far has been true(yet to see the red lights with a crossover in place).



I wouldn't say they sounded the same, but they did sound very similar. 8351b were maybe a little brighter(or 8C was darker, however you want to view it)?. I'm a fairly poor listener, though, so don't take my word for that. I envy people who can say stuff like "200-300Hz is slightly recessed". I'm nowhere near that good. If @hardisj 's upcoming measurements show the 8C to be the brighter speaker, I'd trust that more than I'd trust my ears.

I did think the 8351 imaged/soundstaged a little better(point source thing?), although the 8C was unbelievably good there, too. Imaging difference was much smaller than the bass difference. Main reason I went for the Genelec was for multichannel placement restrictions/freedom. Cost was also a big factor, knowing that the bass would be handled by subs anyway.
I've read in several places that the 8C was more "musical" (dark) than the 8351B so your hearing is just fine:cool:
I'm in the same dilemma my self 8351B+ subs or 8361A with no subs.
In any case if you're listening 3.5 meters and haven't seen the red light thanks to the subs it's great news.
I wonder what's new in the One's tweeter vs the regular 8000 series tweeter, they don't mention it anywhere.
 

napilopez

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#53
That's probably true without a subwoofer, but for my situation, I'd rather have the 8351b. It seems to measure better, and the subs easily drive the bass to like 7Hz at any level I want :D. I did consider the 8361, but I figured the smoother measurements would be appreciated more often than the extra output would, which so far has been true(yet to see the red lights with a crossover in place).



I wouldn't say they sounded the same, but they did sound very similar. 8351b were maybe a little brighter(or 8C was darker, however you want to view it)?. I'm a fairly poor listener, though, so don't take my word for that. I envy people who can say stuff like "200-300Hz is slightly recessed". I'm nowhere near that good. If @hardisj 's upcoming measurements show the 8C to be the brighter speaker, I'd trust that more than I'd trust my ears.

I did think the 8351 imaged/soundstaged a little better(point source thing?), although the 8C was unbelievably good there, too. Imaging difference was much smaller than the bass difference. Main reason I went for the Genelec was for multichannel placement restrictions/freedom. Cost was also a big factor, knowing that the bass would be handled by subs anyway.
Both my measurements and Soundstage Network's show a slight on-axis tilt for the 8C, so that might be an explanation for them being slightly darker relative to the Genelec.

1609045394897.png


Screenshot_20201226-235241.png


I believe D&D aimed for ruler flat and their own measurements show that, so I'm not sure what the cause of the tilt discrepancy is. My measurements pretty much always match soundstage network's for whatever reason.
 
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HooStat

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Thread Starter #54
Sort of a random question, but does anybody listen in mono anymore? The reason I ask is that the Revel C426Be center channel goes to 41Hz (-3db). Could get away with just that. I often joked that all anybody really needs is a good center channel and a sub. But I have never actually tried that, or just a mostly full range center. I don't think I would actually do this, but it is an interesting idea.
 

napilopez

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#55
Sort of a random question, but does anybody listen in mono anymore? The reason I ask is that the Revel C426Be center channel goes to 41Hz (-3db). Could get away with just that. I often joked that all anybody really needs is a good center channel and a sub. But I have never actually tried that, or just a mostly full range center. I don't think I would actually do this, but it is an interesting idea.
I actually listen to a lot of mono music through stereo pairs during testing. I find it a great compromise between just listening to music for enjoyment and doing harman-esque single-speaker critical listening. It's more revealing than stereo music while giving me a more practical sense of a speaker's spatial presentation.

A single speaker though... can't do it. To me the magic of speakers is in the phantom center. To this day, the fact that our brain places an invisible source between two speakers is still one of life's greatest little joys.
 
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HooStat

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Thread Starter #56
I actually listen to a lot of mono music through stereo pairs during testing. I find it a great compromise between just listening to music for enjoyment and doing harman-esque single-speaker critical listening. It's more revealing than stereo music while giving me a more practical sense of a speaker's spatial presentation.

A single speaker though... can't do it. To me the magic of speakers is in the phantom center. To this day, the fact that our brain places an invisible source between two speakers is still one of life's greatest little joys.
Thanks -- makes sense. Just a random thought, but I don't think I could actually do it, especially hearing your experience.
 

sigbergaudio

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#57
I thought about that, but the subs are just too expensive for my application. And they don't have a US presence at the moment. For an expensive item that is heavy and hard to ship, it makes it a tough choice. But I will say that I absolutely love the product from what I have seen, and I think it would work well in my application. I hope @sigbergaudio does well.



It is hard to combine aesthetic considerations and to get great sound. I am trying to stay away from extra boxes in the room, and from speaker stands. Basically, I get the area around the TV (under and to the sides and behind the cabinet).

If I am being 100% honest, the cleanest approach is the DD 8C (as @napilopez mentioned). They match the new media cabinet (black oak), I think they will handle low bass better than the Genelec 8351b (could be wrong here), and the tweeter is at the optimal height (the new media cabinet is 24" tall). I just have to get the digital signal into the speakers and I am done. I don't even need an electronics -- my TV will give me the 2.0 out (but I would have to convert either HDMI or Toslink to AES/EBU). But for a little over $12k, they are really expensive, possibly less reliable than Genelec, and may not hold their value in 5 years.
Just wanted to make sure you know that we do ship to the US. Door-to-door shipping, and shipping is free. :)

We have orders from both the U.S and the UK through this forum, and as a comment to the options discussed in this thread: One of these customers actually have the Dutch Dutch 8C already. He's happy with the speakers as such, but are unable to get an even frequency response when having bass coming just from the speakers. so he ended up ordering dual subwoofers from us despite having the 8C. Whether the 8C will work well on its own will of course depend on the room as well.

And thanks for the mentions in this thread @Duke and @jhaider :)
 

Lorenzo74

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#58
I have checked a few options with my spouse for our living room. I would be interested in people's thoughts on the good and bad of these options. You can see in the attached photo, I have been playing around with a center channel -- for many years we simply went with a 2.1 system with KEF Q300 speakers and a JL Audio F113 sub. It sounded fine except dialog can sometimes be muddy. I added a KEF Q100 speaker as a center channel because it was inexpensive (used) to test out. I don't know that having a center channel is "better" but I think the dialog is a little clearer. We watched the Taylor Swift documentary "Folklore" and it was the first time that I really enjoyed multichannel. I thought the sound was great. I don't know whether stereo would have been as good -- need to check that. But it made me reconsider multichannel (3.x -- no rear channels). But a center channel isn't necessary.

Anyway, here are the options. A bit eclectic, but there are reasons. Note that I can't put subs around the room in the "right" spots. At best, I might get away with one sub on either side of the TV. I can get away with narrow subs behind the entertainment center, which will have ~8" of space behind it. The new media cabinet is the same width as this one, but is 8" shorter (24" vs 32"). And it is only 14" deep which is a problem for components since many need more depth than that.

I don't need the biggest bass -- just enough to enjoy music and appreciate movies. It isn't a home theater. Clean lines and good sound are the priorities.

  • KEF R2C with grills x 3 (left, center, right) + 3 KEF T2 subs behind the entertainment center
    • Have to solve problem of 3 channel sound processing and amplification. Not much room inside the new media center we are getting.
    • Sealed, and relatively short (7" tall) so they should not be visually dominating or hard to integrate with subs
    • Sub solution is less than optimal.
  • Neumann KH 310 with grills x 3 + 3 KEF T2 subs behind the entertainment center
    • Have to solve problem of 3 channel surround processing
    • Not sure if the grills affect the sound in any appreciable way
    • Not sure if a sub is needed with 3 x 8" woofers
  • Dutch & Dutch 8c x 2 + no subs
    • Pricey!
    • Cleanest system (visually)
    • All black and rectangular should mesh well
    • Might be a big big (visually) but are really only 2.5" taller and wider than the KEF Q300
    • No sub needed
Genelec were ruled out due to looks. I could probably push on that, but maybe better for a different room. Alternate options on subs are fine too. Thanks for any suggestions or things to consider. If you have Dutch & Dutch speakers, please feel free to chip in your thoughts on their sound for movies and music (and the process for getting them -- I assume they are harder to get than the others).
View attachment 101404
Hi, why don’t go the extra mile and reward yourself with even better option? Try the kii three and if you want to update them later you can add the BXT...
It’s cardioid also between 50 and 100Hz. None of your selcetion are capable of that and this is the range where bass are really difficult to be reproduced properly in a room.
(It doesn’t matter but Kii Amps are Hypex Ncore while D&D use Pascal)
Best
L.
 

stevenswall

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#59
Hi, why don’t go the extra mile and reward yourself with even better option? Try the kii three and if you want to update them later you can add the BXT...
It’s cardioid also between 50 and 100Hz. None of your selcetion are capable of that and this is the range where bass are really difficult to be reproduced properly in a room.
(It doesn’t matter but Kii Amps are Hypex Ncore while D&D use Pascal)
Best
L.
For the price of a Kii Three and BXT system one could also get a Genelec w371 pair with 8351B and get both vertical and horizontal directivity control with enough to spare for some surrounds and a GLM kit.

I'd love to hear those two systems side by side, and then compare with my 8260+swarm subwoofer array.
 
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HooStat

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Thread Starter #60
You should reach out to Mads from Buchardt via email or through Facebook Messenger and see if he can allay any concerns you have ...he’s a solid guy. In addition to the A700, the A500 may be worth considering.
The Buchardt A700 is an interesting speaker. For pure 2.0, it might actually work better as my spouse might be fine with narrow floor-standers. But the lack of a center channel makes it a 2.0 affair only. Unless there is a magic DSP mode where you can set an A500 on its side and have it function as a center channel. :) But if we go back to the 2.0 route, it looks like the A700 is dead simple and is full range. I didn't realize it went to 17 hz (but I don't know how loud). It seems like a great product.
 
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