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Speaker Cables?

BDWoody

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Roberto's favorite saying is "trust your ears".

I played several of the same tracks today that I did yesterday and there was a pretty significant difference.

Uh huh...

Is he related to P.T. Barnum?
 

cjm2077

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No the loop inductance does not increase. Because at any instance the currents in the two conductors are going in the opposite directions the fields effectively cancel, so the total loop inductance remanes about the same. But with AC power cords carrying lots of current, the coil area can heat up.

Crap, you're right, there has to be a vector of the field in the area of the coil, and with the return path there just isn't. At least at any reasonable distance. My bad.

Roberto's favorite saying is "trust your ears".

Do you trust your eyes?

Which arrow is longer?

Muller-Lyer-1.jpg
 

RayDunzl

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Wombat

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Crap, you're right, there has to be a vector of the field in the area of the coil, and with the return path there just isn't. At least at any reasonable distance. My bad.



Do you trust your eyes?

Which arrow is longer?

Muller-Lyer-1.jpg
The second one has two arrow heads. Depending on if and where where it is divided into two arrows, the longer arrow can be either side.

The first one has two forks and thus is not an arrow.

One would probably enter the ear more easily than the other. Most analogies suck in reality. :eek:
 
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kach22i

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No a inductor coil only has one conductor. There is no opposite conductor to cancel the field.
I have a genuine interest in this topic, and have read in other stereo forums yesterday that coiling up or looping speaker wire does not make a difference so I do not dispute that, just trying to understand it.

Theory on my part: The "opposite conductor" is in fact the loudspeaker load as it completes the circuit with the amplifier, yes?

Please set me straight on the proper terminology, it is amp load not speaker load, right?

By calling it the amp load do we not acknowledge that there is a completed circuit, and can be described as "opposite conductor"?

Is an "opposite conductor" different than a "load", and if so............ in what ways?

https://www.instructables.com/lesson/Inductors/
FKEQ9VUIRO1FPBJ.LARGE.jpg

Well, all wire creates a magnetic field when electricity flows through it. When the wire is coiled, it shapes the field and concentrates it towards its core, which increases its magnetic properties. The magnetic field that is created by the inductor holds energy, and when the current changes, the fields induces more current back into the circuit to try to keep it stable. Hence, the name inductor.

Despite all the Teflon insulation in my fancy speaker wire I think basic properties are still there, just at a much lower level than bare wire.

F78V7PRIRO1FPXZ.LARGE.jpg


Whereas capacitors create electric fields and resist changes in voltage, inductors produce magnetic fields and resist changes in current.

F6RHG0ZIPZMOJDB.LARGE.jpg


The first indication that determines the inductance of a coil is the number of turns (or loops) a coil has. As a general rule coils with more turns have more inductance than coils with less turns.

I often find that taking an example to an extreme helps expose the problem, if there is one to be had that is.

Speaker Wire
https://www.mycablemart.com/store/c...MI2-XdgMCS6AIVS73ACh3RxwovEAkYASABEgI_o_D_BwE
AC-1927-162D_03_600x491.jpg


Lets say we create two experimental situations.

(1.) 1,000 foot run of straight speaker wire run between amp and loudspeaker.

(2.) 1,000 feet of reel wooden spooled wired kept in coiled condition in between amp and loudspeaker hook up.

What if any differences would there be, measured or otherwise notable.
 
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SIY

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Current in each conductor is equal and opposite. The coiled cable is essentially equivalent to an Ayrton-Perry winding.
 

Speedskater

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I have a genuine interest in this topic, and have read in other stereo forums yesterday that coiling up or looping speaker wire does not make a difference so I do not dispute that, just trying to understand it.
It's hard to explain 5 chapters of basic electronics in a speaker cable thread. But you seam to be confusing a wire (which has a single conductor) with a cable/cord (which has two conductors that have signals traveling in the opposite direction).
 

Speedskater

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Lets say we create two experimental situations.
(1.) 1,000 foot run of straight speaker wire run between amp and loudspeaker.
(2.) 1,000 feet of reel wooden spooled wired kept in coiled condition in between amp and loudspeaker hook up.
What if any differences would there be, measured or otherwise notable.
Strange that your link refers to it as speaker wire (it has 2 conductors). Many of us would think of it as speaker cable (or maybe cord).
There would be small measurable differences because in a tight coil like these the cancellation is far from perfect.
 

kach22i

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Strange that your link refers to it as speaker wire (it has 2 conductors). Many of us would think of it as speaker cable (or maybe cord).
There would be small measurable differences because in a tight coil like these the cancellation is far from perfect.

I just grabbed that image as a representation of a really big spool of wire, please do not let it distract.

Let's pretend it is a run of two parallel wires for now.
 
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kach22i

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It's hard to explain 5 chapters of basic electronics in a speaker cable thread. But you seam to be confusing a wire (which has a single conductor) with a cable/cord (which has two conductors that have signals traveling in the opposite direction).
Oh my, yes this is eye opening, thank you for putting this in context for me.

I agree, did not see the point before.

And like every answer leads to more questions, the newest question is; just how "equal" are these signals moving in opposite directions?

What sort of discrepancies will occur when not complete in sync and equal?

Is it at these hiccup points that we may pick up resistance, interference and or other signal garbage?
 

SIY

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And like every answer leads to more questions, the newest question is; just how "equal" are these signals moving in opposite directions?

Exactly equal. Conservation of energy, mass, and charge. First principles.
 
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Johan Liebert

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Strange that your link refers to it as speaker wire (it has 2 conductors). Many of us would think of it as speaker cable (or maybe cord).
There would be small measurable differences because in a tight coil like these the cancellation is far from perfect.
If the speaker cable(2 conductors) was a straight run wouldn't the magnetic fields between them be additive vs canceled in the Star-quad geometry?

I realize that the difference in inductance is probably tiny IRL.
 

Speedskater

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In a 2 conductor or StarQuad speaker cable, the conductors are spaced apart by the insulation, so the field cancellation is not perfect (but the StarQuad does a better job). Because the StarQuad has 2 fields going one direction, and the diagonal 2 fields going the opposite direction.
In a tightly machine wound real, the layers are very close to each other, so they crosstalk (so to speak to each other).
 
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Johan Liebert

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In a 2 conductor or StarQuad speaker cable, the conductors are spaced apart by the insulation, so the field cancellation is not perfect (but the StarQuad does a better job). Because the StarQuad has 2 fields going one direction, and the diagonal 2 fields going the opposite direction.
In a tightly machine wound real, the layers are very close to each other, so they crosstalk (so to speak to each other).
Just trying to understand crosstalk.

Is it the magnetic field generated by the current in one conductor influencing the current in the other one?(even if this is very small?)
 

RayDunzl

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Is it the magnetic field generated by the current in one conductor influencing the current in the other one?

It is inducing a current in the other...
 

Wes

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I bet wiki or a site with animations could help with a basic understanding here.

BTW, be sure not to conflate two things - above you say "does it make a difference?" but a difference too small to hear is different from any difference at all...
 

kach22i

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Maybe the worst thing that could have happened by leaving flat cable coiled up tightly is that it could not dissipate heat as it is designed to do.

https://www.wireandcabletips.com/not-fathers-flat-cables/
  • Consistent electrical qualities – The conductor spacing is fixed and the geometry of the cable is constant. This geometry brings consistent electrical qualities that include impedance, capacitance, inductance, time, delay, crosstalk and attenuation.

  • Greater current-carrying capacity – Flat cables have greater surface-to-volume ratios than their round-cable counterparts. Consequently, flat cables dissipate heat more efficiently. This thermal efficiency lets them handle a higher current level for a given temperature rise and conductor cross-section.
More from the same site.

Ultimately, where signal-to-noise purity, flexibility, heat, weight and volume efficiencies are paramount, flat cables have better inherent performance values than found in round cable. Until now round cable deficiencies have been tolerated, and engineered around, because it is very common and tooling exists for efficient terminating and assembly.

From SIY:
Conservation of energy, mass, and charge. First principles.

Since electricity flows much slower than the speed of light shouldn't there be a "T" or delta T for time in the specific equation we want to use?
 
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