Speaker Cables?

[cjm2077]

I don't want to hi-jack the thread but have a quick question - on topic.

I have some high quality and very long (25 foot ish) speaker wires (Nordost), just hooked them up but have about 2/3rds the length still coiled up in hook and loop ties as the new run is much shorter.

Any danger in creating built up resistance coiled up like this?

I plan on replacing the speaker wires with something shorter and cheaper soon, just asking for the next two weeks of use.

Martin Logan - Aerius that goes down to 2-ohm paired with old Dynaco 120A amp until I refurbish my big tube amps.

I don't play loud, don't want to kill my little old amp.

So as a revision to above, inductance goes by loop area, number of loops, length (in this case more like height if you stacked the coils of wire) and the permeability (of air in this case). So you're not changing the resistance of the wire by coiling them, but you are increasing the inductance. I don't know how stable a Dynaco 120A amp would be, and if it would have an issue driving those speakers with that inductance added in series, but to be safe you could uncoil the wires and just run them in a back and forth pattern to save space. But any 14 gauge or better wire cut to length would probably work better than coiling up the fancy Nordost. The extra inductance is also not a huge deal, and most amps should be perfectly fine with it, but I just don't know enough about that amp or your speakers to say.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

https://www.markertek.com/product/4...-16awg-4-conductor-speaker-wire-gray-per-foot

http://www.nakamichiplugs.com/product/nakamichi-bfa-banana-plug-jack-24k-gold-plated-n0534e/

and be done with it, cheaply.

Agreed but I splurge on the 4s11: https://www.markertek.com/product/4...14awg-4-conductor-speaker-cable-grey-per-foot

 

[sejarzo]

Agreed but I splurge on the 4s11: https://www.markertek.com/product/4...14awg-4-conductor-speaker-cable-grey-per-foot

LOL, I did too, but it was a bit harder to snake it through the holes in my speaker stands.

 

[kach22i]

So as a revision to above, inductance goes by loop area, number of loops, length (in this case more like height if you stacked the coils of wire) and the permeability (of air in this case). So you're not changing the resistance of the wire by coiling them, but you are increasing the inductance. I don't know how stable a Dynaco 120A amp would be, and if it would have an issue driving those speakers with that inductance added in series, but to be safe you could uncoil the wires and just run them in a back and forth pattern to save space. But any 14 gauge or better wire cut to length would probably work better than coiling up the fancy Nordost. The extra inductance is also not a huge deal, and most amps should be perfectly fine with it, but I just don't know enough about that amp or your speakers to say.

Thanks, I just remember as a kid with my mom's vacuum cleaner and the rolled up wire getting warm if I didn't uncoil it.

1. Regarding the last wire link posted, amazing flat treble response, but why no bass and the steep drop off?

2. Are you Bi-Wiring your speakers?

I do not have that option.

3. Given the option of cutting up some 30 year old AudioQuest flat brown wire or buying something new and less oxidized similar to what has been posted, what would you do?

 

[ta240]

https://www.markertek.com/product/4...-16awg-4-conductor-speaker-wire-gray-per-foot

http://www.nakamichiplugs.com/product/nakamichi-bfa-banana-plug-jack-24k-gold-plated-n0534e/

and be done with it, cheaply.

I love markertek.com and the 4s8 and 4s11 wire but I had no idea that there was a nakamichi site, that is great. Thanks!

 

[cjm2077]

Thanks, I just remember as a kid with my mom's vacuum cleaner and the rolled up wire getting warm if I didn't uncoil it.

1. Regarding the last wire link posted, amazing flat treble response, but why no bass and the steep drop off?

2. Are you Bi-Wiring your speakers?

I do not have that option.

3. Given the option of cutting up some 30 year old AudioQuest flat brown wire or buying something new and less oxidized similar to what has been posted, what would you do?

The coiled wire probably got hotter because it had less surface area to radiate heat. Stretched out it cools itself all along the length of the wire, but coiled up you're radiating heat into the other coils. More heat radiated over a smaller area leads to a hotter wire.

1. I wouldn't worry about the frequency response there. It looks like that was for a 100m length and damping factor of 20. You won't be using them at anywhere close those conditions.

2. I've never seen a rational justification for bi-wiring. Maybe because it lowers resistance, but you can just use thicker wire, and it's easy to get wire that is plenty thick enough for most speakers. You don't need a firehose there. Having double the capacitance and whatever extra inductance from separating the conductors like that can't be good either. The amplifier will still see both loads at it's output.

3. The Canare stuff is good quality and offers theoretical potential benefits, but in the real world, simple 12 gauge speaker wire cut to length should be fine for you. Locking banana plugs are a good addition if you can get em. Just for security.

That said I have speaker cables with the Canare 4s11 and neutrik locking NL2 connectors. But I kind of needed for the amp I got (benchmark). At least the NL2 connector part. That fancy stuff isn't that much more and can't hurt. Unlike most prestige cables.

 

[kach22i]

Thank you for the input.

Just did a sound check, much better all around with speaker wires uncoiled, especially in the bass.

Could feel the base in my toes, even on concrete slab with feet up on ottoman.

Also could be the system being all warmed up and speakers (stats) plugged in for 24 hours.

 

[Wes]

what speakers do you have?

also, do you know what the minimum impedance is?

 

[LTig]

Thank you for the input.

Just did a sound check, much better all around with speaker wires uncoiled, especially in the bass.

Could feel the base in my toes, even on concrete slab with feet up on ottoman.

Also could be the system being all warmed up and speakers (stats) plugged in for 24 hours.

I seriously doubt that uncoiling the speaker wires has any influence on bass performance.

 

[Duckeenie]

I seriously doubt that uncoiling the speaker wires has any influence on bass performance.

I can't decide whether he was joking or not.

 

[cjm2077]

I seriously doubt that uncoiling the speaker wires has any influence on bass performance.

It could happen if the extra inductance was causing the amp to oscillate, dumping power into high frequencies. But that seems pretty unlikely, and you'd probably hear some other nasty effects. That it would change the amp just in a way that would make the bass a little different would truly be the goldilocks of impedance change.

 

[sejarzo]

I love markertek.com and the 4s8 and 4s11 wire but I had no idea that there was a nakamichi site, that is great. Thanks!

I am sure that somebody merely licensed the Nakamichi brand name for those plugs. You can buy them from that site or on eBay. I like that sawtooth style because they seem to fit most securely in any of the binding posts on amps or speakers I've owned for some time. I tried others in the past that are similar to the Nakamichi leaf spring or stick spring styles and they all seemed looser than the sawtooth style. In any case, the price is right!

 

[Speedskater]

So as a revision to above, inductance goes by loop area, number of loops, length (in this case more like height if you stacked the coils of wire) and the permeability (of air in this case). So you're not changing the resistance of the wire by coiling them, but you are increasing the inductance.

No the loop inductance does not increase. Because at any instance the currents in the two conductors are going in the opposite directions the fields effectively cancel, so the total loop inductance remanes about the same. But with AC power cords carrying lots of current, the coil area can heat up.

 

[kach22i]

I seriously doubt that uncoiling the speaker wires has any influence on bass performance.

Well, my Martin Logan hybrids (Aerius) have been unplugged for over a year.

I found the below quote from a well known person in the M/L community and I trust his words.

http://www.martinloganowners.com/forum/showthread.php?1101-Warm-up-time-for-Martin-Logan-speakers

Hola...your Aerius and most ML only need 5 sec. to charge the stators, but sounding best takes about two or three days...why? The stators and the diaphragm act like a big capacitor...and need that time for full charge...but don't worry about it...as soon as you turn on your system, you start to enjoy the wonderfull sound of your Aerius, and as soon as you use it more, better the sound! Happy vacation and happy listening,
Roberto.

I kind of thought it would be that more than unbinding the coil of speaker wire, but every little bit counts.

Now if I can just find my Sota record clamp, or is that another poo poo item that doesn't really do anything?

 

[kach22i]

No the loop inductance does not increase. Because at any instance the currents in the two conductors are going in the opposite directions the fields effectively cancel, so the total loop inductance remanes about the same. But with AC power cords carrying lots of current, the coil area can heat up.

Does this have anything to do with how an Air-Coil (like in speaker crossover) works?

https://www.calsci.com/audio/X-Overs2d.html

Inductors

Inductors are coils of wire; in fact, during the days of vacuum tubes they were called coils. The unit of inductance is the Henry. One henry is a very large inductor.

An inductor works like the mass of the water in a hose. If you had a two hundred foot long 4 inch diameter fire hose going full blast, and instantly cut off the water supply, the hose will not instantly stop spraying water. Inside this hose there are about 125 gallons of water weighing over 1,000 lbs. The momentum of the moving water in the hose will keep the water flowing for some time. You can't instantly stop 1,000 lbs. Similarly, an inductor adds "mass" to electric current: an inductor makes it harder to build up a current flow in a wire, and then once the current is flowing, the inductor makes it harder to stop the current.

If you connect two inductors end to end in a line, the inductances add. If you connect them side by side, the formula for the new inductance is the same as the parallel resistance law. So, inductors combine like resistors. People almost never combine inductors in either of these ways.

EDIT:

Maybe because Nordost is flat I more likely made a primitive foil inductor when coiled rather tightly?

http://audiojudgement.com/audio-grade-inductors-speaker-crossovers/

Compared to a capacitor, an inductor is also a frequency dependant resistor. However, now it rejects the higher frequencies.

 

[SIY]

Well, my Martin Logan hybrids (Aerius) have been unplugged for over a year.

I found the below quote from a well known person in the M/L community and I trust his words.

http://www.martinloganowners.com/forum/showthread.php?1101-Warm-up-time-for-Martin-Logan-speakers

Two minutes playing with the time constant equation will remove your trust in him.

 

[kach22i]

what speakers do you have?

also, do you know what the minimum impedance is?

See Post #20

 

[kach22i]

Two minutes playing with the time constant equation will remove your trust in him.

Roberto's favorite saying is "trust your ears".

I played several of the same tracks today that I did yesterday and there was a pretty significant difference.

I think the whole system is getting "in tune" be it by warming up or whatever, and that probably isn't going to be found in a math equation any more than a singer's voice sounding better after a vocal exercise will be.

When I first bought the speakers about 20 years ago there wasn't much bass until the bass driver surrounds were broken in after a few weeks of playing. Again, this sort of thing is not going to be found in an standard equation.

EDIT:

Maybe once I'm more settled in I will reverse the experiment and recoil the speaker wire, thereby taking the warm up variable out.

They were coiled pretty tightly for travel, maybe 4" to 5" diameter.

 

[SIY]

Roberto's favorite saying is "trust your ears".

That's a common euphemism for the opposite. "Make sure you peek and use no controls."

His claim about charging is physically ridiculous. Math is absolutely relevant to basic electricity and acoustics. That may not be poetic, but it has the virtue of being true.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Now if I can just find my Sota record clamp, or is that another poo poo item that doesn't really do anything?

I still have one of those and I use it like my ancient Shakti stone: I put them on electronics chassis' that are loose and/or flimsy.