Speaker accuracy is overrated

[ThatSoundsGood]

Asking because I don't know but would line array speakers + subs accomplish this?

JBL makes some PA-line array speakers one could use in a home environment, and there are other options ranging from DIY to high-end.

L-Acoustics, the most coveted line array maker in the world, makes stuff for the home environment. Meyer stuff can also be used. Any smaller format Pro- PA speakers can be used at home but it isn't any better than home audio stuff for that purpose. The desire to put professional PA equipment in a home is generally just a lack of knowledge of the differences in how they're developed and what the home audio needs are.

 

[Theta]

I’m confused. Accuracy of on-axis frequency response is not limited to “little two-way” stand-mount speakers. Plenty of large floor-standers that can project a tall soundstage to a relatively far away listening position are on the market, and among those the more “accurate” ones are likely to sound better, all other things being equal.

So too are speakers with more accurate off-axis response likely to be more pleasing if you listen from more than one spot or if you feel the need to toe them out a little to widen the soundstage and increase the proportion of reflected-to-direct sound.

If you are convinced that a less-accurate speaker will produce a more convincing concert-hall illusion with a specific type of recording of a specific genre of music, good luck with that. Different types of inaccuracies will interact in various ways with your room, and the results will likely vary based on exactly where you position the speakers and which handful of recordings you initially use to evaluate them.

This is why fidelity aka accuracy is often a helpful reference standard - it reduces the circle of confusion.

I only mentioned little 2 way speakers because people a so intense about the accuracy of their 6 inch woofers and 1inch tweeter and the quality of the capacitors and other passive filters, it seems like a useless audiophile waist of time and effort, since the even the best of these wont even approximative a concert like ambiance.
Even the best 500K floor standing 3 or 4 ways towers I have heard at shows dont do it for me. Stereo imaging is not the equivalent of a wall of sound, it is always weak in the center. I wont even mention home theater systems for music, or dolby setups with 9 speakers all over the place, also rubbish.
Stanley Owsley, engineer for th Grateful Dead did some research in the field of hi fi PA systems but apparently no one followed thru in that direction.

 

[Digby]

There was a famous engineer for JBL who shared your sentiments, someone else will chime in with the name.

What is wrong with the JBL M2 or 4367 for your purposes? They have very low distortion and pretty accurate (more than typical PA) frequency response.

 

[Chr1]

My understanding is that Owsley made a decent PA rig (for the time.) Plus a shedload of decent LSD.
Modern SOTA PA rigs are miles ahead of his designs though surely?

Modern studio "main monitors", like the JBL or Genelec 8381A already mentioned would make great small home PAs, I reckon.
Assuming one has very deep pockets!
(Room size and required SPL mainly dictate what's necessary.)

 

[Mr. Widget]

I am only concerned with the reproduction of concerts or concert like recordings without all the gimmicks and all the so called artistic additives of the recording engineers which dictate the accuracy so many audiophile crave and demand from their little 2 way speakers however good or expensive..
I demand from speakers to primarily deliver the lowest IM distortion at an average of 85db in a small room.
Perhaps some one can create a wall of sound like the sound man of the Greatful Dead provided for concerts only for the home.
Does anyone else on this forum aspire to this type of fidelity?
Is this the impossible dream? Can we come close? How?

It is not an impossible dream and you can come very close if not surpass your wildest dreams. It will cost a bit of real estate and the equipment required can be found at decent prices, but will not be cheap.

First how important is flat frequency response? We are extremely sensitive to frequency response linearity, but interestingly we can also be very accommodating. We can listen to a tiny transistor radio and still recognize it as music. We mentally "equalize" sounds that are not quite linear and hear them as we believe the sound should be. This is how speakers like the Klipsch LaScala or the Altec A7 can be cherished by some... these two speakers and many, many others will do exactly what you want. Others are more linear, but after a bit of listening we usually discount the importance of linearity.

A speaker like the JBL Everest II, the DD67000 has a similar large and powerful sound as the Klipsch and Altec but is far more accurate (linear) and can really bring a concert into your home. There are others as well and the better pro audio equipment (PA and some studio monitor type speakers) will also do this.

All of the speakers I have mentioned are high sensitivity speakers with a lack of low bass output and they are all large. Subwoofers can mitigate the lack of VLF reproduction, but these are still large speakers. I have not found really small speakers even if they can produce very high SPLs able to create the type of sound you are describing.

In my home theater I have Meyer Sound Ultra X-20s which are 7.5" by 19" high and can put out over 123dB at a one meter playing pink noise... insanely powerful in the home context, yet they do not reproduce a full orchestra or Grateful Dead concert as believably as the larger speakers I mentioned earlier. In my application the lack of scale is made up for by their being part of a surround system... the nature of surround fills in the blanks.

If you want a two channel system that really convinces you that you are at the concert, you will need a room that can accommodate a pair of fairly large speakers, you may want to add DSP to correct the gross FR nonlinearities and you will want to either sound proof the room or be away from others who may not share your musical taste.

 

[JustJones]

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/SRX906LABun1--jbl-srx906la-8-powered-line-array-4-powered-subwoofer-ground-pa-system

 

[ThatSoundsGood]

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/SRX906LABun1--jbl-srx906la-8-powered-line-array-4-powered-subwoofer-ground-pa-system

That's certainly a line array designed for mid-far field listening. Putting that in a home is bound to give you hearing loss and sound awful unless someone experienced spends a lot of time tuning it properly.

 

[Mr. Widget]

There was a famous engineer for JBL who shared your sentiments, someone else will chime in with the name.

What is wrong with the JBL M2 or 4367 for your purposes? They have very low distortion and pretty accurate (more than typical PA) frequency response.

I think you are thinking of Drew Daniels. His system was absolutely a realization of a "domestic" wall of sound. https://www.audioheritage.org/html/perspectives/drews-clues/drews-clues.htm

FWIW: both the M2 and the 4367 will come closer to the sound of the live event than many others, but not quite as well as the even larger speakers I was mentioning... like everything else in audio, it is all about compromises.

 

[Theta]

It is not an impossible dream and you can come very close if not surpass your wildest dreams. It will cost a bit of real estate and the equipment required can be found at decent prices, but will not be cheap.

First how important is flat frequency response? We are extremely sensitive to frequency response linearity, but interestingly we can also be very accommodating. We can listen to a tiny transistor radio and still recognize it as music. We mentally "equalize" sounds that are not quite linear and hear them as we believe the sound should be. This is how speakers like the Klipsch LaScala or the Altec A7 can be cherished by some... these two speakers and many, many others will do exactly what you want. Others are more linear, but after a bit of listening we usually discount the importance of linearity.

A speaker like the JBL Everest II, the DD67000 has a similar large and powerful sound as the Klipsch and Altec but is far more accurate (linear) and can really bring a concert into your home. There are others as well and the better pro audio equipment (PA and some studio monitor type speakers) will also do this.

All of the speakers I have mentioned are high sensitivity speakers with a lack of low bass output and they are all large. Subwoofers can mitigate the lack of VLF reproduction, but these are still large speakers. I have not found really small speakers even if they can produce very high SPLs able to create the type of sound you are describing.

In my home theater I have Meyer Sound Ultra X-20s which are 7.5" by 19" high and can put out over 123dB at a one meter playing pink noise... insanely powerful in the home context, yet they do not reproduce a full orchestra or Grateful Dead concert as believably as the larger speakers I mentioned earlier. In my application the lack of scale is made up for by their being part of a surround system... the nature of surround fills in the blanks.

If you want a two channel system that really convinces you that you are at the concert, you will need a room that can accommodate a pair of fairly large speakers, you may want to add DSP to correct the gross FR nonlinearities and you will want to either sound proof the room or be away from others who may not share your musical taste.

We are on the right track here. Any experience with the Altec 604 or the Altec Bi-flex? Could be a cheaper alternative.

 

[JustJones]

That's certainly a line array designed for mid-far field listening. Putting that in a home is bound to give you hearing loss and sound awful unless someone experienced spends a lot of time tuning it properly.

Is has DSP but yeah it would need a big room but I thought accuracy wasn't a priority?

Perhaps something like this .

2 x 1234A + 2 x 7380 - Genelec.com

A true full-range system with staggering SPL capability and low frequency extension. The combination of 1234 and 7380 subwoofer combines total studio precision with the energy and vibe of a club system.

www.genelec.com

 

[Mr. Widget]

We are on the right track here. Any experience with the Altec 604 or the Altec Bi-flex? Could be a cheaper alternative.

The 604 yes, not with the Bi-flex. If I was going this route I would look for a pair of used Urei 811s or 813s.

 

[Theta]

There was a famous engineer for JBL who shared your sentiments, someone else will chime in with the name.

What is wrong with the JBL M2 or 4367 for your purposes? They have very low distortion and pretty accurate (more than typical PA) frequency response.

Unfortunately the 2 JBL model you mention are bass reflex, not good for my room, I had better experience with closed boxes.

 

[ThatSoundsGood]

You should look at old Clair Brothers speakers on eBay or on their website. If you could get some S4's then you would probably be happy. They are giant baffle PA speakers that will rip you into pieces.

Used CLAIR S4 Series III 3-Way Speaker Cabinet

Used CLAIR S4 Series III 4 Way Passive/ 3 Way Active Speaker Cabinet for Sale. We Sell Professional Audio Equipment. Audio Systems, Amplifiers, Consoles, Mixers, Electronics, Entertainment, Live Sound

clairusedgear.com

 

[JustJones]

There's the big Klipsch Jubilee

Jubilee Floorstanding Speaker

The larger-than-life Klipsch Jubilee Heritage floorstanding speaker is the new flagship of the Heritage Series. Find a dealer and bring this powerful…

www.klipsch.com

 

[Sacha]

Someone was feeling trolly today with that thread title here

 

[Theta]

You should look at old Clair Brothers speakers on eBay or on their website. If you could get some S4's then you would probably be happy. They are giant baffle PA speakers that will rip you into pieces.

Used CLAIR S4 Series III 3-Way Speaker Cabinet

Used CLAIR S4 Series III 4 Way Passive/ 3 Way Active Speaker Cabinet for Sale. We Sell Professional Audio Equipment. Audio Systems, Amplifiers, Consoles, Mixers, Electronics, Entertainment, Live Sound

clairusedgear.com

Very interesting but maybe an overkill, I am not looking for loud but the wall of sound in a small room at an average listening of 85 db's.

 

[Digby]

I think you are thinking of Drew Daniels. His system was absolutely a realization of a "domestic" wall of sound. https://www.audioheritage.org/html/perspectives/drews-clues/drews-clues.htm

That's the one, has anyone got any pics of Drew's setup (or anyone who copied him)? I remember reading his article around 20 years ago and imagining what it looked like.

Unfortunately the 2 JBL model you mention are bass reflex, not good for my room, I had better experience with closed boxes.

Put a sock in it...the ports, I mean.

 

[Chr1]

Someone was feeling trolly today with that thread title here

Should have been suffixed with "I LIKE VOLUME" perhaps...

 

[Mr. Widget]

Unfortunately the 2 JBL model you mention are bass reflex, not good for my room, I had better experience with closed boxes.

My guess is that you've had bad experiences in the past with poorly designed bass reflex systems or possibly placing them in the wrong locations. Both enclosure topologies can work well or flat out fail depending on the skill of the designer and the deployment.

 

[Mr. Widget]

Should have been suffixed with "I LIKE VOLUME" perhaps...

Perhaps, but as I mentioned above, high SPLs alone to not create the sense of a large live musical experience.