Spatial audio company Immersion Networks closing

[EERecordist]

Immersion Networks – Immersion Networks

immersion.net

Immersion Networks Wanted to Raise the Music-Listening Experience to New Heights

Immersion Networks' mission seems basic and desirable—and very ambitious: "to reframe the human listening experience." Yet, despite being led by some of the most brilliant minds in audio technology, the Redmond-based company has gone into receivership and it had to vacate its spacious offices in...

www.thestranger.com

https://murphyauction.hibid.com/auction/651628/speaker-and-sound-equipment---online-auction

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More than 20 years ago, a friend of mine did a startup and made the predecessor to the video 5th generation iPod. I got it to the right people of a $10B company with a business plan for them. They were "no, we only do business with Philips."

 

[amirm]

I toured their facility a year or two ago. Very impressive listening room and talent with our own @j_j as a key pillar. At the time I thought they were going to be acquired. It is a shame if that failed.

 

[j_j]

I toured their facility a year or two ago. Very impressive listening room and talent with our own @j_j as a key pillar. At the time I thought they were going to be acquired. It is a shame if that failed.

Everybody wants it, nobody's board wants to pay for it. My guess is that it's lost to the wind.

 

[gberchin]

Everybody wants it, nobody's board wants to pay for it.

@j_j, I can attest to that from personal experience.

 

[j_j]

@j_j, I can attest to that from personal experience.

Likewise.

 

[kyuu]

From the linked article (bolding mine):

What factors make IN technology superior to others'? "All of the other technologies out there are either a rehash of what was done in the '70s or leveraged codecs that we developed, which JJ invented and published in the early '90s. My iPhone has more power than a room of Cray supercomputers from the time they were developing AAC [Advanced Audio Coding]. There's so much more that we can do just with the processing. Second is, knowing we were designing this stuff for Immersive, there are elements of audio that are thrown out—not only in the AAC codec, but in Dolby Atmos and Eclipsa Audio [a Google/Samsung product], and all the other competing technologies—which we know are critical for people to have an understanding of where they believe they're sitting in space. And those codecs are intentionally throwing those data out. By starting with a clean sheet of paper, knowing that we were making an immersive codec, we knew not to throw that stuff out when we needed to save bits.

What is it that existing codecs are throwing out, exactly?

 

[j_j]

From the linked article (bolding mine):

What is it that existing codecs are throwing out, exactly?

Depends on the codec. AAC is 'mostly ok' but you can't really run the rate up meaningfully to a level that allows reproduction of the time domain details at mid-frequencies with most of the encoders. (This is a fundamental artifact of the power law quantizer, which wins at low bit rates, but chokes you at high bit rates.) It's not a horrid problem, though. You'd still have to send per-channel data, no downmix nonsense. AC3, with no "coupling channel" nonsense at high rates,would probably suffice, but the coupling channel has to go.

HOWEVER any of the 'spatial codecs' that is effectively an upmix, like MPEG-Surround or its children, it's simply not going to fly, unless you also import the spatial engine (which is the real value in the stuff up for auction) and drive it AT THE END POINT. Of course that would be the right way to do it, but a 'set bit rate' is not going to happen, it's basically much like people call "object oriented" with a few changes that are probably unique but since I can't see inside some of the other stuff, who knows.

The problem is diffusion and decorrelation. Until all of this auction stuff is concluded, I can't say more, I suppose. I am not sure what I am allowed to "know" at this point.

 

[kemmler3D]

A surprisingly in-depth report in the Stranger article, and sorry to hear it came to this @j_j, I have likewise experienced investors and large customers somehow failing to see what's right in front of them and let valuable things fall in the gutter.

I don't know how much you can talk about it, but would this tech be applicable to gaming, and/or did you have any discussions in that industry? If nothing else they have more money to throw around than music-oriented businesses.

 

[j_j]

I don't know how much you can talk about it, but would this tech be applicable to gaming, and/or did you have any discussions in that industry? If nothing else they have more money to throw around than music-oriented businesses.

It would kick *** for gaming, and has the necessary lack of latency. That was one of the design constraints.

 

[GXAlan]

I don’t know if Dolby, Google, or Samsung will jump on it just to have a bigger patent war chest. For all we know, Lenbrook could acquire the IP and fold it into MQA Labs or the new Auro3D could pick up!

One of the tough scenarios for startups are the games the VCs can play. If they know you are running low on cash, they can lowball their offer so they will want to delay and delay to try to get a better deal. Someone interested in the tech can take the gamble that it will be cheaper to buy the IP on the auction market versus what the company was asking which includes the value of the IP and the debt they currently have.

The other thing in the opposite direction is the whole old GM and new GM concept.

Immersion Networks had a big debt payment due. The company can go bankrupt, default on that debt, and then sell the valuable IP to a new company called Immersion Networkz with a Z instead of an S, which is a completely brand new legal company. That new company has to raise money with the blemish of the past, but can wipe out their debt. There is a legal way to do this. Stuff like that auction is intended to maximize the amount that can be paid back to decrease the debt even if it is not a whole. You can imagine that if the IP is worth $10M, the debt is $15M and the stuff is equipment is worth $1M, a venture capitalist would need to pay $15M to keep the company going when it’s worth $10M (still a lot but less than the debt). If the company goes bankrupt, the assets are sold for $1M, the IP is sold for $10M, then a new company is formed which values the IP correctly, and the companies that lent the company 15M only gets 11M and has to write off the remaining 4M as a loss.

I think the other big question is how big of a difference the time domain is relative to the effort being placed by the studios and the improvement in sound quality when applied to home environments with soundbars or speakers in non-ideal locations.

Using Atmos as an example, we have TrueHD lossless content which just puts objects in fixed locations overhead instead of utilizing dynamic objects. Likewise, breaking the Dolby and DTS monopolies are pretty tricky. Auro3D fizzled, and even against Dolby Vision, HDR10+ sort of failed to make an impact despite Samsung being a huge player in the TV market.

Sometimes good technology is tough to find customers when the customers are happy with their junk food.

 

[j_j]

Sometimes good technology is tough to find customers when the customers are happy with their junk food.

Obviously, although I know very little about the actual issues around the bankruptcy, (sorry, not involved in that, nothing accidental there) and couldn't comment if I did know anything, the last line is part of the problem, and to be blunt, some of the top market players DO NOT WANT the customers to hear anything better.

I leave it to you why that might be.

 

[GXAlan]

some of the top market players DO NOT WANT the customers to hear anything better.

I leave it to you why that might be.

100%. There is a reason Dolby stopped offering Dolby Pro-Logic II even though companies like Yamaha were willing to pay a double license in their CX-A5100 to have PLII and the Surround upmixer with Atmos.

There is also the cost of bandwidth, and perceived fear of video piracy which prevents 4K UHD BDs from being played on PC/Mac despite the “ready availability” of bootleg 4K content.

Sorry the better tech didn’t win this time. Crossing my fingers that this is some sort of 4D chess where you get a phone call to bring you out of unplanned retirement.

 

[j_j]

Sorry the better tech didn’t win this time. Crossing my fingers that this is some sort of 4D chess where you get a phone call to bring you out of unplanned retirement.

You know, I'm 71, and I no longer have to care. Barring the craziness destroying the economy, I plan to goof off a lot more. I wouldn't mind somebody handing a very bright 25 year old for 6 months to learn fast, if they want to pay for it all, including me.

 

[Timcognito]

I was in nine medical device startups, one went public and was acquired by a large Med Device Co., two were acquired by Pharma and Med Device Co. and one ran out of money due the 2009 market crash, one ran out money due to Covid, both unable to complete expensive clinical trials, and in three I lost money that I invested in them when they went south. Raising capital is a big issue and saving headcount to run lean presents as unsuccessful and too early for purchase.
My experience tells me startups and small companies don't get sold, they get bought because the venture has proprietary competitive advantages that are a threat to larger concerns and start to make revenue or capture market share. On side note, startups are the one of the best jobs out there because there is rarely any dead weight in staffing, only the critical path tasks can be accomplished, and many small failures lead to learning and successes, if what you are trying to accomplish is truly innovative. I learned this by being acquired by larger slower companies where decisions took forever and CYA was on a lot peoples minds.

You know, I'm 71, and I no longer have to care. Barring the craziness destroying the economy, I plan to goof off a lot more. I wouldn't mind somebody handing a very bright 25 year old for 6 months to learn fast, if they want to pay for it all, including me.

Love this. Been there done that. The past is not negotiable. After crashing my beloved BMW M3 the then VC, BOD and now large market sports team owner said " it's time to think about what you're gong to buy next" J J, just think about what you want to do next. That may be the hardest thing.

 

[j_j]

JJ, just think about what you want to do next. That may be the hardest thing.

What do I want to buy next?

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1853936-REG/nikon_z7_ii_mirrorless_camera.html

I already have the first version, an F2Z, and I live close to a lot of scenery. I suspect this may explain my next intent, well, after our NZ daughter, her husband, and the new grandkid finish their visit.

Right now it's "clean house", which is to say get rid of all the stuff the 2 kids left behind 10-15 years ago. The local real charity store knows me by name now.

As to "use the stuff" if they don't want to pay for it, (&(*&* 'em.

 

[Timcognito]

Sounds good. I know from what you written we are of like mind, so I say "all politics is local". Hope I'm right about the last part.

Knowing I have a safety net, I can spend time on my hobbies, local community causes and give back with money and more precious, my time. Proud to say recent projects/achievements are a new and very modern local library, restoring a 150 yr old lighthouse and contributing to an Open Space Trust that preserves forests, farms and beaches from development.

 

[j_j]

Sounds good. I know from what you written we are of like mind, so I say "all politics is local". Hope I'm right about the last part.

Knowing I have a safety net, I can spend time on my hobbies, local community causes and give back with money and more precious, my time. Proud to say recent projects/achievements are a new and very modern local library, restoring a 150 yr old lighthouse and contributing to an Open Space Trust that preserves forests, farms and beaches from development.
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Oh I hear all of that, loud and clear.

 

[Lion♡]

the last line is part of the problem, and to be blunt, some of the top market players DO NOT WANT the customers to hear anything better.

I leave it to you why that might be.

Thank you for your hard work nonetheless.

 

[kemmler3D]

You know, I'm 71, and I no longer have to care. Barring the craziness destroying the economy, I plan to goof off a lot more. I wouldn't mind somebody handing a very bright 25 year old for 6 months to learn fast, if they want to pay for it all, including me.

I have a little personal experience with just how few audio engineers are standing at the forefront of knowledge with both feet, (they're out there but they sure aren't falling out of trees either) so I would certainly support that kind of thing... not that I have any leads, but I randomly just met with someone from Northwestern university today that works for the dean, so I could ask them how to set something up with a suitable grad student....?

 

[j_j]

I have a little personal experience with just how few audio engineers are standing at the forefront of knowledge with both feet, (they're out there but they sure aren't falling out of trees either) so I would certainly support that kind of thing... not that I have any leads, but I randomly just met with someone from Northwestern university today that works for the dean, so I could ask them how to set something up with a suitable grad student....?

Ask Thrasos about that? (Thrasos Pappas, that is)