Sparkos SS3602 Opamp Rolling In Fosi P4

[DMB90]

1% is four orders of magnitude, even less audible. You also need to take the Klippel distortion test to inform yourself how much distortion is actually audible. You can't pass 80dB even with a pure tone. If you can, please post your results. Someone pointed this out to you earlier when you implied you had great hearing and could hear all of these artifacts, did you ever go and take the test?

1 kOhm load.

So if Accuton is not good, what do you use in your speakers?

 

[MaxwellsEq]

So if Accuton is not good, what do you use in your speakers?

Discussing speakers is off-topic.

This thread is about the non-existent benefit of op-amp rolling.

 

[MAB]

So if Accuton is not good, what do you use in your speakers?

You misunderstood what I said. I was pointing out that all drivers have distortion that is more than 1000x compared to a preamp, more like 10000x more if compared to the preamp I tested here. Your comparison of speaker distortion to preamp and opamp distortion is misaligned by 3 or 4 orders of magnitude. Accuton drivers are fine drivers.

You seem to be unaware of the actual magnitude of distortion in various components. And the audibility and thresholds of human detection of distortion. Which is why people ask you to go take a distortion listening test.

 

[DMB90]

Discussing speakers is off-topic.

This thread is about the non-existent benefit of op-amp rolling.

I disagree. If you have poor speakers or power amplifier, you will never hear the difference. If you have never tried listening to Sparkos, Staccato discrete opamps or JRC MUSES01 or MUSES02 or BB OPA627 than please don't comment on this thread.

 

[Svend P]

I disagree. If you have poor speakers or power amplifier, you will never hear the difference. If you have never tried listening to Sparkos, Staccato discrete opamps or JRC MUSES01 or MUSES02 or BB OPA627 than please don't comment on this thread.

You could probably benefit from reading this thread

'Master Thread: Are Measurements Everything or Nothing?'

Nov 18, 2020

Seems like so many review threads get challenged with:

1. Measurements are not everything.

2. You all never listen.

3. I trust my ears, not graphs.

4. I don't listen to graphs. I listen to music.

5. You all must not listen to music at all.

6. Why don't you all buy the best SINAD gear?

7. I have heard your best SINAD gear and they sound terrible. I don't like any of this Chinese stuff.

8. You don't trust your ears. I/we do.

9. All these reviewers/youtubers/audophiles say these amps, DACs, etc. sound different and you say they don't. They can't all be wrong.

10. Surely designers...

• amirm
• Replies: 16,487
• Forum: General Audio Discussions

• 

 

[MaxwellsEq]

I disagree. If you have poor speakers or power amplifier, you will never hear the difference

I won't hear the difference because there is no measurable difference regardless of off-topic subjects such as amplifiers or speakers.

If you have never tried listening to Sparkos, Staccato discrete opamps or JRC MUSES01 or MUSES02 or BB OPA627 than please don't comment on this thread.

I've designed, built, measured, analysed and repaired circuits using op-amps. As part of my electronics degree I designed and built an op-amp based ultra-high-gain transresistance amplifier. I know how op-amps work, their limitations and capabilities and how the circuitry wrapped around the op-amp sets 95% of the circuit characteristics.

I have every right to comment on this thread.

What expertise do you have that permits you to be a gatekeeper on this thread? Or are you just another troll.

 

[DMB90]

I won't hear the difference because there is no measurable difference regardless of off-topic subjects such as amplifiers or speakers.

I've designed, built, measured, analysed and repaired circuits using op-amps. As part of my electronics degree I designed and built an op-amp based ultra-high-gain transresistance amplifier. I know how op-amps work, their limitations and capabilities and how the circuitry wrapped around the op-amp sets 95% of the circuit characteristics.

I have every right to comment on this thread.

What expertise do you have that permits you to be a gatekeeper on this thread? Or are you just another troll.

I believe you are trolling this thread. Once again, If you have never tried listening to Sparkos, Staccato discrete opamps or JRC MUSES01 or MUSES02 or BB OPA627 than please don't comment on this thread. I am not debating that THD gets improved by these devices. I am just saying they sound different.

 

[MaxwellsEq]

I am just saying they sound different.

What is the electronic mechanism that makes them sound different. Please produce measurements to back up your subjective opinion.

 

[staticV3]

Please produce measurements to back up your subjective opinion.

Or, do a controlled listening test so that there's some indication that you're not being tricked by cognitive bias @DMB90

Discussing or stating sighted listening impressions serves no purpose.

You could just as well roll the dice and choose from a list of audiophile buzzwords at random and the result would be indistinguishable in value.

 

[DMB90]

Instead of gaslighting other audio hobbyists, try buying SS3602 and listen for yourself.

 

[NTK]

I'm not trying to take away from people's right to make stupid claims and say ignorant things, or work on electronics despite having no knowledge of the field, and no experience with electrical safety.
It's a forum on audio science, I am arguing for more integrity in the posts. Thanks for highlighting the need for more integrity in posting here; you got everything wrong.

The fact that you are freely using terms "stupid" and "ignorant" makes me doubt your integrity.

Stupid:
Ignorant:

Instead of gaslighting other audio hobbyists, try buying SS3602 and listen for yourself.

 

[MAB]

Instead of gaslighting other audio hobbyists, try buying SS3602 and listen for yourself.

 

[solderdude]

Instead of gaslighting other audio hobbyists, try buying SS3602 and listen for yourself.

If the waveform of the electrical audio-signal does not change (measurements show this to be the case) how can the sound change noticeably ?

 

[amirm]

I believe you are trolling this thread. Once again, If you have never tried listening to Sparkos, Staccato discrete opamps or JRC MUSES01 or MUSES02 or BB OPA627 than please don't comment on this thread. I am not debating that THD gets improved by these devices. I am just saying they sound different.

Next you are going to say we can't discuss the moon if we have not set foot on it. I have listened to them and you are dead wrong anyway. Move on if you don't have any proof points to the contrary.

 

[MAB]

Instead of gaslighting other audio hobbyists, try buying SS3602 and listen for yourself.

Sincerely, you have been gaslighting. The nitpicking and FUD-casting on other people's measurements and data. Jumping from topic to topic to keep from having to account for the things you are claiming. Misinterpreting. Not answering direct questions. Appeals to authority, and elitism. You seem to think you have unique access to stuff and experiences, which is odd given the forum you are posting at. For example, I have a box full of your unicorn OPA627. Let's check them out.

But first, briefly return to an example earlier in the thread, the OPA2604, and establish a baseline for distortion performance before I shoehorn some OPA627 into the preamp I have been using here.

I loaded pairs of NE5532, OP275, TL072, OPA2227, OPA2228, LM4562, OPA2604, OP270, OPA2132, OPA2134, and LF412C into the preamp. I swept the output to clipping. Here are THD+N and THD for the group. I zoom in on THD to get a better view.

The NE5532 and a handful of OpAmps all stand out with best distortion performance in this application. The OPA2134 is among the best for distortion, which is great since I also have the OPA134, and I can make single- to dual-OpAmp adapters.

I made two adapters since my preamp has two gain stages. The adapters prevented me from closing the lid on the preamp. But I see lots of OpAmp rollers who can no longer close lids on their gear. Cut holes. Etc. So I'm fine.

To establish a baseline between the OPA2134 performance and the OPA134 mounted on my adapters, I did four runs. I did a run with all OPA2134 in the preamp, a pair of runs with just one OPA134 adapter configured with an OPA2134, and a run with both OpAmps using the OPA134 adapters. All of these are line on line matched for distortion, which I measured since you would have cast doubt on the validity of the result since my adapters are crude, not made from exotic materials.

I get the same results with the OPA134 as the OPA2134. Let's compare the OPA627!

Next, I measure the OPA627 across output voltage. The OPA627 has slightly lower distortion at 2-4V.

This is great performance, the differences are tiny, not audible.

Here are OPA627 compared to OPA134 at 2V output.

There is simply no audible difference between these. The slightly different 2nd to 3rd HD between the OpAmps is just not notable at this low level.

Try not to overinterpret the gain again, I am attenuating to 6dB gain with a volume control - it's a preamp after all. The internal gain is much higher. I measure stuff where it will most commonly be used. Not in some corner case configuration like you keep suggesting.

And I measured the performance across output for you again, so that's covered. And I made sure I wasn't doing something silly or unfair to either OpAmp by overloading an input, despite some of your odd coaching you gave me earlier. Which is why I was laughing at you when you accused others of gaslighting.

Hey, since you were speculating, what other physical property determines how sound is reproduced?

 

[MaxwellsEq]

Very interesting! Thanks for the hard work in doing this analysis.

 

[solderdude]

{s}

you have been gaslighting. The nitpicking and FUD-casting on other people's measurements and data.

There are over 20 reasons why you are wrong.

1. Sound is complex and dynamic and is very different from steady state signals and sweeps.
2. You have not tested the different sounding opamps like SS3602, Staccato discrete opamps or JRC MUSES01 or MUSES02, LT1220, LMC6482, LME49720 and these do sound different.
3. If you have poor speakers or power amplifier, you will never hear the difference.
4. There are so many people hearing difference so it is real.
5. How do you measure soundstage, air between instruments, smoothness etc ?
6. You are only looking at frequency response and distortion.
7. You did not measure everything and everything matters.
8. The manufacturer states you can tune the sound by changing op-amps so it is true.
9. I asked chatGPT and it replied that there are audible differences between op-amps.
10. You did not use music that does show audible differences.
11. And I will tell you again ... I am not imagining things and no it isn't placebo either.
12. On youtube Danny from GR clearly shows the audible differences and he knows what he is talking about. And there are other videos as well.
13. Your ears are not discriminate enough.
14. You are all wrong you must listen with your ears instead of gazing at measurements.
15. You are biased and think they all sound the same so they will.
16. Did you burn-in every op-amp for at least 200 hours ?
17. There obviously are things science doesn't know how to measure yet.
18. You did not use an audiophile grade power supply.
19. Your mains must be dirty obscuring all the differences.
20. You did not use a vinyl rig or any audiophile DAC did you ?
21. You used a breadboard and that imparts its sound as everything matters.
22. You clearly must not have used audiophile cables.
23. Your test equipment isn't discriminate enough compared to real ears.
24. All op-amps measure differently so they are different and thus they sound different.

{/s}

 

[MAB]

{s}



There are over 20 reasons why you are wrong.

1. Sound is complex and dynamic and is very different from steady state signals and sweeps.
2. You have not tested the different sounding opamps like SS3602, Staccato discrete opamps or JRC MUSES01 or MUSES02, LT1220, LMC6482, LME49720 and these do sound different.
3. If you have poor speakers or power amplifier, you will never hear the difference.
4. There are so many people hearing difference so it is real.
5. How do you measure soundstage, air between instruments, smoothness etc ?
6. You are only looking at frequency response and distortion.
7. You can't measure everything and everything matters.
8. The manufacturer states you can tune the sound by changing op-amps so it is true.
9. I asked chatGPT and it replied that there are audible differences between op-amps.
10. You did not use music that does show audible differences.
11. And I will tell you again ... I am not imagining things and no it isn't placebo either.
12. On youtube Danny from GR clearly shows the audible differences and he knows what he is talking about. And there are other videos as well.
13. Your ears are not discriminate enough.
14. You are all wrong you must listen with your ears instead of gazing at measurements.
15. You are biased and think they all sound the same so they will.
16. You did not use audiophile cables.
17. Did you burn-in every op-amp for at least 200 hours ?
18. You did not use an audiophile grade power supply.
19. Your mains must be dirty obscuring all the differences.
20. You did not use a vinyl rig or any audiophile DAC did you ?
21. You used a breadboard and that imparts its sound as everything matters.
22. You clearly must not have used audiophile cables.
23. Your test equipment isn't discriminate enough compared to real ears.
24. All op-amps measure differently so they are different and thus they sound different.

{/s}

Guilty on all counts.

 

[FireLion]

Anyway to get it on a headphone measurement rig? I doubt the difference would be noticeable, but if it's changing bass-minds-treble, isnt this where the ark of the covenant, might be found?

 

[solderdude]

You can get audible differences on a headphone rig when op-amps are used to drive (lower impedance) headphones directly.
This, however, is because of current limiting (clipping) behavior and current draw near its limits which cab even be a-symmetrical.

Otherwise the distortion and noise of op-amps is lower than that of any headphone and measurement fixture .... even in a soundproof box.