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Source computer's HUGE effect on fidelity

pierre

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I have some experience with the 3 main os.
linux is good if the interface I supported (very often not the case), when it works, it is very stable.
Windows is better, and the here are ways to make it stable with high channels counts and low latency: follow a daw Manuel to go there. You will need to do remove stuff from the OS but it's doable.
Mac OS is slightly better, I run with 20-80 channels in, 16 out in real time. Like in windows, many friends eatures a are disable to be able to do that reliably.

If you have 2 channels everything works perfectly on all OS for the last 10+ years at least with a cheap audio interface, ASR proved a basic Chinese interface bprrom topping or Beringer amke the Jobe perfectly.
 

Sal1950

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Noctua have a really good reputation for low noise, long lasting fans
I built this box in 2008 using really good parts back then and I've continually updated it as I learned any tricks. I'm now running Noctua fans in my tower and also have slowed them down with the in-line resistors they supply. The CPU fan speed is temp controlled by the bios.. I keep the Linux app gKrellm running on my desktop that reports the fan and temp speeds in real time. The only one I find makes objectial noise is the power supply fan. I've been leery to open it up and try to slow it down with resistor.. I've replace all the harddrives except for one with 3 SSD's
Plans for the future are sketchy, I may either add a second box using a cheap NUC for audio only, or build a whole new desktop box using a Streacom case or something similar for a totally silent build. I was very impressed with the results Amir got with his Streacom build. I keep trying to talk him into selling it to me but he won't budge. :)
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/amirs-music-server-build-thread.415/
 

Xulonn

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I think I want fanless! Thanks for the info!

I have been into audio since my father bought me my first amplifier - a monaural tube amp - when I was a high school junior in 1958. I have been into personal computers since I bought an IBM PC with two 360Kb floppy drives in 1984. I worked my way up to senior network administrator in the 90's and was an independent contractor hired to do the desktop computing Y2K mitigation at the Pacific [Stock] Exchange, which took all of 1999. I stopped working in desktop support and network administration in 2001, but then - and now - I was never as astute and proficient as many of my colleagues over the years, especially the younger ones. And now, nearly 20 years later, I am living as a expat/retiree in a small mountain resort/agricultural town in Western Panama - with 160Mb internet. Below is my computer setup which includes a decent, bass-limited audio system. I hate to admit it, but I am an Intel NUC fan-boy (fan-geezer?)
DVH Workstation 02-2020..JPG

Case Size and CPU Speed: My Intel NUC8i7BEH with a 1Gb M.2 SSD boots in 15 seconds and benchmarks faster than my previous - and much bigger - Lenovo M900 SFF, also an Intel i7-powered PC. (Click the below image to enlarge it)
Lenovo M900 SFF.jpg
Fan issues: With a slight breeze outside my window and the refrigerator running in the next room, I cannot hear the NUC fan - but it would likely be audible during very quiet passages of music or video in the evening with the window closed and the fridge not running.

USB Ports: NUC's are notorious for not working [edit] sometimes do not work well with Logitech unifying receivers for mice and keyboards that are plugged into a front or back USB port unless you use a USB extension cable. To eliminate that inconvenience, but I just installed an aftermarket "Gorite" lid with two rear USB ports that connect to the two internal auxiliary USB 2.0 connectors - works great and does not take up one of the five USB 3.1 ports (two in front and three in back).

NUC8's also have a HDMI 7.1 digital (HDMI mDP) port, and one of the USB 3.1 ports is a Thunderbolt 3 USB Type-C port providing DisplayPort 1.2 or USB 3.1 connectivity.

Gorite NUC8 USB Lid.jpg


I transferred an old copy of Windows 10 Home from a dead laptop to my NUC8i7, but if you want a "free" non-Microsoft OS, you can run any of several Linux flavors. I do a lot of A/V (MP3, MP4, FLAC, MKV, M4V) re-encoding, subtitle extraction, translation and manipulations - all with a collection of excellent freeware that is currently available. My NUC is pretty fast at encoding and re-encoding.

When 4Tb SSDs drop to a price point that I can live with, I will get two of them - one to install in the NUC, and an external one that I can first back up to, and then afterwards sync to via the high-speed USB ports. My experience with 3.1 USB flash drives is that they are at least 10 times faster at transferring data than USB 2.x storage devices. I now own a few 32-128Gb USB 3.1 flash drives for transfers and daily use, and periodically back up any media files that cannot be easily replaced to my older, slower mechanical 4Tb external drives. With the high speeds available using the latest USB formats, I will probably eliminate my ethernet-based NAS in the near future.

NUCs vs applications: Unless you are a serious gamer or a 4K/8K, 16-channel videophile needing slots to plug in power-sucking monster video cards, I believe that NUCs are excellent PCs for everyday use. I really, really like my desktop computer/audio system (see the top photo). Combined with an excellent I.AM.D DAC/amp (probably 40wpc and not the laughable 150wpc that is advertised), and a USB audio connection that was instantly recognized by my Win10 NUC, everything runs flawlessly - and the NUC is fast and cool running.

I also have an old NUC5CPYH, an Intel Celeron-based unit that I use as my HTPC - but I only do two-channel 1080p video and up to FLAC audio. I dual boot the Celeron NUC - to Daphile on the internal SSD, or LibreElec/Kodi on a USB stick, and it plays any of my A/V files with no issues. Just be aware, that as Intel explicitly states, "Intel® NUC products don't allow you to boot directly from SD cards". But I don't care, because they boot just fine from a tiny USB drive.

I am retired and don't travel, and do not want or need a laptop - my relatively new Lenovo 10" Android tablet works perfectly for the rare occasions that I want to use a "computer" away from home. I decided a few months ago that I wanted to miniaturize my primary working computer/desktop audio. Since the prices for new hardware had come down a lot, I spent a bit to modify and upgrade my system last year, and I think that I have succeeded magnificently. My biggest desktop computing component is now my HP 24" monitor - with 1920x1080 resolution and a bezel on the top and sides that is less than 2mm wide.

For anyone who can afford it, I recommend an Intel NUC8i5 (or 8i7) or later with high speed USB 3.1 ports and Thunderbolt-Displayport compatibility for 8K/60fps video. And a $20-30 Gorite aftermarket lid if you need a couple extra ports of any kind. You can use your old 2.5" mechanical HDD, and add a small SSD for super-fast booting - or do like I did, install a tiny 1Tb M.2 SSD and be done with it. I suggest 8Gb of RAM, 16Gb gives you a bit more performance, but except for rare applications, more than 16Gb will probably not do much.

I did a lot of research - and a bit of trial and error - to finally get to a computer and desktop audio system I have no desire to "upgrade". I hope that this information will help a few others on their own personal paths to a similar goal.

Edit: I put a copy of this post in the dedicated NUC thread I started on November 2, 2019
 
Last edited:

Count Arthur

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The only one I find makes objectial noise is the power supply fan.

If it's a standard-ish size case, it's easy enough to replace the power supply. Many better quality PSUs have very quiet fans, fans which only spin when required, or no fans at all. The PSU in my PC has a fan, but as far as I'm aware it never spins: https://www.corsair.com/uk/en/Categ...ply-Units-Advanced/RMx-Series/p/CP-9020179-UK

If you don't have a graphics card, or a low powered one, you can get away with a much lower wattage PSU, maybe 300 or 400 watts. However some "headroom" is good as it will run cooler and the fan will run quiter, or maybe not at all.
 

Sal1950

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Funny. Amir actually reviewed a similar wood "ground box" here. Maybe not surprisingly--it actually increased noise because the ground wire connected to it acted like an antenna.
Yep, it's pure snake-oil. :)
 

renaudrenaud

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I use an Atomic Pi Intel powered SBC (Single Board Computer) as a player running Daphile. I printed the box from a modified design from thingiverse. No fan at all, ultra low consumption, Linux inside and ultra low cost (35$ for the card).
 

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Sal1950

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If it's a standard-ish size case, it's easy enough to replace the power supply. Many better quality PSUs have very quiet fans, fans which only spin when required, or no fans at all. The PSU in my PC has a fan, but as far as I'm aware it never spins: https://www.corsair.com/uk/en/Categ...ply-Units-Advanced/RMx-Series/p/CP-9020179-UK

If you don't have a graphics card, or a low powered one, you can get away with a much lower wattage PSU, maybe 300 or 400 watts. However some "headroom" is good as it will run cooler and the fan will run quieter, or maybe not at all.
Thanks, I keep going over the options but it just may not be the right path to put any more money into this box I built in 2008 around a Gigabyte motherboard and Intel Core 2 Quad Q9550 2.83 GHz processor. It's still way fast enough to play my multich high rez files without working up a sweat but after 12 years of service I worry it will let the smoke out one day soon.. Now my Cosmos case is still a beauty but its a super large form factor box and I might like to downsize it too.
Decisions decisions, I can't make up my mind. LOL

Speaking of computer upgrades, I've been watching my 14 year old beloved Acer 26" monitor get dimmer and dimmer lately. It's beloved cause I paid $770 for it in 2006, that was a heck of a lot of money for me then, but like speakers, a good large monitor makes many hours online a much less stressful time. Anyway I decided to go Acer again for a new monitor and got a real nice 32" EB321HQU on sale at Newegg for $199.99 delievered! A h-ll of a deal on it. When I got it hooked up and booted today, the whites had me about reaching for my sunglasses, I forgot how bright a good new panel can be. For non-demanding applications I can highly recommend it. It's native res is 2560x1440 but I'm running it at 1920x1080, my graphics card isn't the worlds fastest. I'm fast falling in love with my new big screen. ;)
https://www.newegg.com/acer-eb321hqu-awidpx-31-5-wqhd/p/N82E16824011180
BTW, I'm really liking being able to use a DisplayPort cable with this new monitor. The fact that they have locks on them gives me piece of mind over HDMI and I have no need for sound at the monitor.
Acer-monitor-EB1-Series-EB321HQA-black-main.png
 
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Count Arthur

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after 12 years of service I worry it will let the smoke out one day soon

I only recently built a new PC. My previous system with an Intel Core i5 2500K overclocked from 3.3Ghz to 4.3Ghz has run flawlessly for 10+ hours a day for around 10 years. I think that provided you make sure everything runs cool enough and you don't let your system fill with fluff and dust, they're pretty reliable.

With the exception of my first PC, I've always bought separate components, case, CPU, motherboard, etc. and built my own and I've only had one major issue that I can remember. The first 2.5" SATA SSD I had went screwy after a year or so and the system started randomly crashing. Nothing showed up using the drive checking software, so no clues, but once I replaced that drive, the system was fine again.
 

Nicolaas

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I have been into audio since my father bought me my first amplifier - a monaural tube amp - when I was a high school junior in 1958. I have been into personal computers since I bought an IBM PC with two 360Kb floppy drives in 1984. I worked my way up to senior network administrator in the 90's and was an independent contractor hired to do the desktop computing Y2K mitigation at the Pacific [Stock] Exchange, which took all of 1999. I stopped working in desktop support and network administration in 2001, but then - and now - I was never as astute and proficient as many of my colleagues over the years, especially the younger ones. And now, nearly 20 years later, I am living as a expat/retiree in a small mountain resort/agricultural town in Western Panama - with 160Mb internet. Below is my computer setup which includes a decent, bass-limited audio system. I hate to admit it, but I am an Intel NUC fan-boy (fan-geezer?)
View attachment 51129
Case Size and CPU Speed: My Intel NUC8i7BEH with a 1Gb M.2 SSD boots in 15 seconds and benchmarks faster than my previous - and much bigger - Lenovo M900 SFF, also an Intel i7-powered PC. (Click the below image to enlarge it)
View attachment 51139
Fan issues: With a slight breeze outside my window and the refrigerator running in the next room, I cannot hear the NUC fan - but it would likely be audible during very quiet passages of music or video in the evening with the window closed and the fridge not running.

USB Ports: NUC's are notorious for not working with Logitech unifying receivers for mice and keyboards that are plugged into a front or back USB port unless you use a USB extension cable. To eliminate that inconvenience, but I just installed an aftermarket "Gorite" lid with two rear USB ports that connect to the two internal auxiliary USB 2.0 connectors - works great and does not take up one of the five USB 3.1 ports (two in front and three in back).

NUC8's also have a HDMI 7.1 digital (HDMI mDP) port, and one of the USB 3.1 ports is a Thunderbolt 3 USB Type-C port providing DisplayPort 1.2 or USB 3.1 connectivity.

View attachment 51145

I transferred an old copy of Windows 10 Home from a dead laptop to my NUC8i7, but if you want a "free" non-Microsoft OS, you can run any of several Linux flavors. I do a lot of A/V (MP3, MP4, FLAC, MKV, M4V) re-encoding, subtitle extraction, translation and manipulations - all with a collection of excellent freeware that is currently available. My NUC is pretty fast at encoding and re-encoding.

When 4Tb SSDs drop to a price point that I can live with, I will get two of them - one to install in the NUC, and an external one that I can first back up to, and then afterwards sync to via the high-speed USB ports. My experience with 3.1 USB flash drives is that they are at least 10 times faster at transferring data than USB 2.x storage devices. I now own a few 32-128Gb USB 3.1 flash drives for transfers and daily use, and periodically back up any media files that cannot be easily replaced to my older, slower mechanical 4Tb external drives. With the high speeds available using the latest USB formats, I will probably eliminate my ethernet-based NAS in the near future.

NUCs vs applications: Unless you are a serious gamer or a 4K/8K, 16-channel videophile needing slots to plug in power-sucking monster video cards, I believe that NUCs are excellent PCs for everyday use. I really, really like my desktop computer/audio system (see the top photo). Combined with an excellent I.AM.D DAC/amp (probably 40wpc and not the laughable 150wpc that is advertised), and a USB audio connection that was instantly recognized by my Win10 NUC, everything runs flawlessly - and the NUC is fast and cool running.

I also have an old NUC5CPYH, an Intel Celeron-based unit that I use as my HTPC - but I only do two-channel 1080p video and up to FLAC audio. I dual boot the Celeron NUC - to Daphile on the internal SSD, or LibreElec/Kodi on a USB stick, and it plays any of my A/V files with no issues. Just be aware, that as Intel explicitly states, "Intel® NUC products don't allow you to boot directly from SD cards". But I don't care, because they boot just fine from a tiny USB drive.

I am retired and don't travel, and do not want or need a laptop - my relatively new Lenovo 10" Android tablet works perfectly for the rare occasions that I want to use a "computer" away from home. I decided a few months ago that I wanted to miniaturize my primary working computer/desktop audio. Since the prices for new hardware had come down a lot, I spent a bit to modify and upgrade my system last year, and I think that I have succeeded magnificently. My biggest desktop computing component is now my HP 24" monitor - with 1920x1080 resolution and a bezel on the top and sides that is less than 2mm wide.

For anyone who can afford it, I recommend an Intel NUC8i5 (or 8i7) or later with high speed USB 3.1 ports and Thunderbolt-Displayport compatibility for 8K/60fps video. And a $20-30 Gorite aftermarket lid if you need a couple extra ports of any kind. You can use your old 2.5" mechanical HDD, and add a small SSD for super-fast booting - or do like I did, install a tiny 1Tb M.2 SSD and be done with it. I suggest 8Gb of RAM, 16Gb gives you a bit more performance, but except for rare applications, more than 16Gb will probably not do much.

I did a lot of research - and a bit of trial and error - to finally get to a computer and desktop audio system I have no desire to "upgrade". I hope that this information will help a few others on their own personal paths to a similar goal.

Edit: I put a copy of this post in the dedicated NUC thread I started on November 2, 2019

Hi Xulonn, thank you so much for sharing your experiences in so much detail. As I would love to continue Linux Mint Xfce with Audacious/ALSA I will still consider using a NUC for this purpose. And when I switched from Windows to Linux on my Vaio many years ago the CPUs ran 10 degrees C lower than with Windows. So the noise was much less and only noticeable in night sessions with very low audio volume. I think I will also have a look at those Chinese fanless PCs. And many thanks for the link to your dedicated NUC thread!
 

dkinric

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I recently put together my new desktop system to replace my aging tower. Intel NUC7i5BNH - 7260U used off ebay for about $225. Added some RAM and an M.2 NVMe hard drive. Have you seen these new hard drives? It's the size if a stick of RAM and the fastest option out there - starting for around $100.

These NUC boxes are incredible. Only slightly larger than an Apple tv with all the computing power most need right now (outside serious gamers and professional video editors). Has display port/thunderbolt to run a monitor up to 4096x2304 or up to 3 monitors. Runs extremely fast and quiet. Has an external power supply brick, so easy replacement there if needed.

Anyone looking to upgrade should look into these. Currently on 10th generation, but even older are plenty fast. Serving as my main desktop system and running Roon flawlessly.
For comparing processor output, this is a good resource:
https://www.cpubenchmark.net/singleCompare.php
 

Count Arthur

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My only issue with the NUCs is the lack of drive space.

I still buy some CDs and rip them to hard drive; you can often buy a CD for less than than the digital download version of the album. Therefore, I like a CD/DVD drive and spinning hard drive is still the most cost effective option for large capacity storage.

I know you can use USB connected drives, but then the whole thing ends up as a bit of an untidy mess, so I'd rather have everything in one box, even if it is a bit larger.

If you are purely streaming from something like Tidal, then I guess it's less of an issue.
 

dkinric

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My only issue with the NUCs is the lack of drive space.

I still buy some CDs and rip them to hard drive; you can often buy a CD for less than than the digital download version of the album. Therefore, I like a CD/DVD drive and spinning hard drive is still the most cost effective option for large capacity storage.

I know you can use USB connected drives, but then the whole thing ends up as a bit of an untidy mess, so I'd rather have everything in one box, even if it is a bit larger.

If you are purely streaming from something like Tidal, then I guess it's less of an issue.
Not sure what country you are from, but in the US, hard drive space is inexpensive. I don't believe magnetic spinning drives are even worth looking at, so getting an external SSD has become a no-brainer.
Looking at Amazon just now, I see a WD 1TB for $50, a 2TB for $80. These drives are about the size of a deck of cards. How much space do you need?
Also, external CD/DVD drives are about $30.
 

Jimbob54

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Not sure what country you are from, but in the US, hard drive space is inexpensive. I don't believe magnetic spinning drives are even worth looking at, so getting an external SSD has become a no-brainer.
Looking at Amazon just now, I see a WD 1TB for $50, a 2TB for $80. These drives are about the size of a deck of cards. How much space do you need?
Also, external CD/DVD drives are about $30.
SSD or old fashioned spinny disk external drives? In the UK 1TB external SSD on Amazon is more like £130. Ripoff Britain , again!
 

Count Arthur

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Just looking at some UK prices:

Internal CD/DVD drive: <£20
Internal 2TB 2.5" SSD: ~£200
Internal 2TB 2.5" HDD ~£60
Internal 2TB 3.5" HDD ~£50

That's quite a premium for SSD and there's no real benefit for music file storage, even the slowest 5,400 RPM HDDs are way faster than needed.

Oddly, some external HDDs seem to be about the same price as as internal drives. I recently bought a litte 2TB WD passport drive in a rather fetching orange colour for about £55:

wd-my-passport-8592-001.jpg


Presumably these things all cost the same to produce, regardless of the colour, but for some reason they sell them on Amazon at significantly different prices. When I bought mine, the orange version was about £10 ~15% cheaper than any of the other colours. :confused:
 

Jimbob54

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dkinric

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Thats not solid state. Thats a small spinny hard drive . Moving parts. Add SSD into the search- more than double the cost for similar storage.

(But im not sure , from the perspective of storing and replaying music files, if there is a practical difference in HDD or SSD )
My bad, you are correct. Apologies for confusion.
 
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