Soundstage & Imaging speakers

[Jawbone]

Hello all, long time lurker that's only just made an account!

I'm after some suggestions on speakers that produce nice soundstage and imaging (I love sitting on the chair and listening to songs with a wide stage, vocals in the middle and sparkles of instruments, especially drum hits and guitar picking, going off around the sides). For me, that's what makes HiFi special. I'm currently running some vintage speakers and have tried ones with wider baffles and seem to loose some stage, especially the phantom center (baffle diffraction?)... Some highly regarded speakers, such as the Yamaha NS-1000 have very little stage at all, and as such don't interest me. Having been to HiFi shows, Coppice Audio X3 and ATC SCM50 stood out but the prices are just too hard to swallow (is the Coppice X3 a GR-research Encore copy in real wood??)

My room has acoustic wall panels for first reflections and im using Dirac Live through a MiniDSP with an Audiophonics HPA-S400ET. Current speakers are Technics SB-7 (they actually stage pretty well!) but looking for recommendations on other options to try in the under £3000 price range. I would like to run 2 channel without a subwoofer but appreciate that smaller bookshelf speakers would require one (and are probably best for staging??)

My interests at the moment, Kef R3 Meta, Polk R700, GR-Research Encore (has anyone here tried these??), Hitmaker MT Studio kit speakers... Do these high end X/over parts really make a difference, have any of you tried and tested this?

Any recommendations very welcome

​

 

[ozzy9832001]

Hello all, long time lurker that's only just made an account!

I'm after some suggestions on speakers that produce nice soundstage and imaging (I love sitting on the chair and listening to songs with a wide stage, vocals in the middle and sparkles of instruments, especially drum hits and guitar picking, going off around the sides). For me, that's what makes HiFi special. I'm currently running some vintage speakers and have tried ones with wider baffles and seem to loose some stage, especially the phantom center (baffle diffraction?)... Some highly regarded speakers, such as the Yamaha NS-1000 have very little stage at all, and as such don't interest me. Having been to HiFi shows, Coppice Audio X3 and ATC SCM50 stood out but the prices are just too hard to swallow (is the Coppice X3 a GR-research Encore copy in real wood??)

My room has acoustic wall panels for first reflections and im using Dirac Live through a MiniDSP with an Audiophonics HPA-S400ET. Current speakers are Technics SB-7 (they actually stage pretty well!) but looking for recommendations on other options to try in the under £3000 price range. I would like to run 2 channel without a subwoofer but appreciate that smaller bookshelf speakers would require one (and are probably best for staging??)

My interests at the moment, Kef R3 Meta, Polk R700, GR-Research Encore (has anyone here tried these??), Hitmaker MT Studio kit speakers... Do these high end X/over parts really make a difference, have any of you tried and tested this?

Any recommendations very welcome

​

Welcome.

It's always tricky business when people talk about soundstage. Some of it does have to do with the speakers themselves -- narrow vs wide dispersion, but a lot more has to do with setup and positioning.

In your current setup, how far apart are the speakers and where is the main listening position?

Side wall treatments can also slightly hinder soundstage as well, since the reflections from the side walls can actually increase the sense of width.

 

[Jawbone]

That's really interesting, I'll have to run it with and without the panels again

The center of the tweeters are 1.75M apart and the listening position is 1.85M away from both tweeters (classic triangle). Baffles are partially toed in (straight on baffle runs just beyond outside of shoulders. Room length is 5.4M, width 3.1M

 

[Emlin]

Side wall treatments can also slightly hinder soundstage as well, since the reflections from the side walls can actually increase the sense of width.

That depends on whether you just want a uniform width for every recording, caused by the acoustics of your room swamping the information in the recording, or whether you want the soundstage to be that of the recording (however produced) and therefore varying from recording to recording.

 

[TheZebraKilledDarwin]

Hello all, long time lurker that's only just made an account!

I'm after some suggestions on speakers that produce nice soundstage and imaging (I love sitting on the chair and listening to songs with a wide stage, vocals in the middle and sparkles of instruments, especially drum hits and guitar picking, going off around the sides). For me, that's what makes HiFi special. I'm currently running some vintage speakers and have tried ones with wider baffles and seem to loose some stage, especially the phantom center (baffle diffraction?)... Some highly regarded speakers, such as the Yamaha NS-1000 have very little stage at all, and as such don't interest me. Having been to HiFi shows, Coppice Audio X3 and ATC SCM50 stood out but the prices are just too hard to swallow (is the Coppice X3 a GR-research Encore copy in real wood??)

My room has acoustic wall panels for first reflections and im using Dirac Live through a MiniDSP with an Audiophonics HPA-S400ET. Current speakers are Technics SB-7 (they actually stage pretty well!) but looking for recommendations on other options to try in the under £3000 price range. I would like to run 2 channel without a subwoofer but appreciate that smaller bookshelf speakers would require one (and are probably best for staging??)

My interests at the moment, Kef R3 Meta, Polk R700, GR-Research Encore (has anyone here tried these??), Hitmaker MT Studio kit speakers... Do these high end X/over parts really make a difference, have any of you tried and tested this?

Any recommendations very welcome

​

How much do you want to hear the imaging and depth in a mix, and how much fun do you want to have? What is fun for you?
If you are interested to hear what is going on in a mix with all the panning, the stoundstage, how instruments are placed in the depth, or even what is going on in the side channel, then Auratones 5C at arms length probably still are the best for analytical listening (yes, with Auratones is possible to hear the side channel and weaknesses in ambiences in the mix).
Fun? Depends. If it is fun for you to discover new acoustic aspects in songs, if it is fun to listen deeply into a mix, if it is fun for you to learn and grow. Then it could be fun. But if you do not like to listen analytically and enjoy easy listening, then its no fun. How to know the difference? I would say, if you listen to music and you cannot do something else simultaneously - like reading a book - then you may be the kind of analytical listener who enjoys to concentrate and listen carefully.

The Auratones 5C are 1-way speakers and therefore have a very good transient and phase response. Therefore their imaging is absolute reference level, despite the very affordable price. You will hear details and aspects, you probably have never heard before (like the character of the used different reverbs, or if too much reverb was being used on certain instruments). Your hearing would probably also benefit over time. But this acoustic magnifying glass comes at a price: these speakers have no real bass (although kicks and bass can be judged quite well, though).
If you have a second, full range system, this could also be beneficial, because then you could compare and learn, what details you are missing on the "better sounding" system.

 

[DVDdoug]

I agree... Tricky business... It's obviously an illusion with the sound really coming from a pair of speakers, so your brain is involved.

And Floyd Toole says:

The important localization and soundstage information is the responsibility of the recording engineer, not the loudspeaker

Acoustics also play a role and I assume that regular forward-firing speakers make a more precise soundstage whereas omnidirectional or bi-pole/dipole speakers probably make a "wider" soundstage.

 

[Jawbone]

Thanks for the replies..

I'd say I definitely listen to the music without doing anything else, no book reading etc.

I didn't really realise you could get this experience until I got into the higher end headphones and EQ that I actually noticed this and then a friend introduced me to Dirac and this site. Then with a bit of messing around, I managed to get music separation like on the headphones from a HiFi and have been curious since.

Depth and instrument placement of the stage is probably what I'd like. I guess I hear people talk about height too but I can't say I get much of that. Maybe I should stick with what I have as it's enjoyable?

Ozzy mentioned above about narrow vs wide dispersion.. Excuse my lack of knowledge but how would I know what dispersion I have on my speakers?

 

[Titurel]

That's really interesting, I'll have to run it with and without the panels again

The center of the tweeters are 1.75M apart and the listening position is 1.85M away from both tweeters (classic triangle). Baffles are partially toed in (straight on baffle runs just beyond outside of shoulders. Room length is 5.4M, width 3.1M

Don't get too hung up on layout measurements. They are a starting point, which room variables could easily invalidate. Achieving great sound-staging may require (many) small adjustments* to the basic layout, which should include special attention to toe in, as it can be crucial to both imaging and tonal balance.

It's been may experience that both speakers need to "see" both ears (and see them with similar spectral balance) to achieve a stable image.


* as small as a centimeter or two

 

[tmuikku]

Hi, well matched left and right speaker can make strong phantom center/imaging. I do not know how well matched your NS1000 are, you could measure if you wish and try to tweak the attenuators for better match.

To perceive imaging imprinted on recordings clearly, not overriden by early reflections of your room, shrink your listening distance to small enough so that auditory system shifts state and provides your perception the direct sound with all the clarity.

I don't know your setup or room so some tips. NS1000 has baffle size of roughly 50cm(2 feet) so arms length is too close listening distance, but perhaps 1.5m (6 feet) listening triangle could work. If possible position the triangle symmetrical in the room and elevate speaker so tweeters are roughly at ear height. NS1000 as old school speaker has quite bad edge diffraction issue, which makes frequency response differ to any listening angle, so make sure toe-in is exactly the same for both left and right speaker, what ever that is.

I suspect it is possible to have clear imaging with your system, but not sure. You can verify it by listening: Put some dry mono signal playing, like pink noise, and listen eyes closed. You should be able to make the sound more hazy and localize in front of you by moving yourself further away from speakers, staying equidistant to both all the time of course. And then moving back closer to speakers perceive the sound switch back to more clear and small phantom image. If this happens you can now be sure your auditory system is in the correct state. Obviously, when close enough you have the clear image, and not the hazy one further away.

By the way, you should learn to listen the change and find it with any system you come accross in your life so you always known which state your auditory system is in, to be able to evaluate the system, the room and their relationship And, as per previous posts you'll learn that listening further away is more relaxing and some recordings and your mood just sounds better there. Or closer up, yoi can move yourself at will! Listening closer with clear image is the more involving one, auditory system pays involuntary attention to the sound, and this is exactly what makes you perceive the sound/image clearly (also envelopment, better localization and engagement and all the adjectives happen as well, more compute from brain). Listen too far, brain thinks it's not anything important, doesn't allocate resources, and perception remains hazy.

Now that you can listen the stuff you could try increase size of the listening triangle and play with toe-in and positioning relative to room boundaries to get nice bass and so on. Perhaps listen other systems in other rooms and gradually figure out how to evolve your own setup if it needs that. I think the 1cm movement stuff mentioned in above post is true and likely due to the edge diffraction and other directivity related issues, which many if not most speakers have, and make resposne vary between left and right which then breaks the image. This makes the positioning and toe-in really fiddly as there might be just one good positioning, only one good listening axis.

Have fun!

 

[DVDdoug]

I managed to get music separation like on the headphones

Headphones can get "weird" and not everybody gets the same experience. Headphone soundstage survey

But you can get 100% left-right separation whereas with speakers the left & right soundwaves mix in the air.

 

[tmuikku]

and room reflections

 

[Jawbone]

Headphones can get "weird" and not everybody gets the same experience. Headphone soundstage survey

But you can get 100% left-right separation whereas with speakers the left & right soundwaves mix in the air.

That headphone survey is really interesting! I don't want to throw this thread off topic but I've experienced different results with different headphones and EQ's really help too! The first time I heard soundstage on headphones I wasn't sure what i was hearing, it sounded pretty different to what I'd experienced before.

Thanks for the suggestions so far, I'm making notes... I also thought about trying the HiFi on the long wall instead of the narrow wall but I was put off reading up about this being a bad idea and the fact it would mean more holes in walls with acoustic panels being moved.

 

[NicC]

Jawbone, I read your question. You asked for speakers with great soundstage. Yesterday I listened to a demo set of Axxess LX speakers paired only with the Axxess Forte streamer. Lots of songs (typically 80s such as Hotel California) put a smile on my face - because of the soundstage. And for what it's worth, I definitely heard sounds in recordings I've never heard before.

 

[NicC]

I must add this though. I found the sound had too much treble for my taste. For example, Phil Collins' 'In The Air Tonight' didn't sound good to me. His vocals almost made me cringe. I asked the salesman if I could adjust the treble somehow. He said 'No'. And just for comparison, at home I listen to Spotify on my Marantz HT amp with an Emotiva XPA 5, Definitive Audio sub-woofer and Dali Zensor 7 speakers. Much, much warmer sound, but, sadly, very little soundstage Hence, like you, I'm thinking of upgrading some equipment.